Rule Suggestion (5.3 Raiding)

[Birksy]

Suggestion Topic: 5.3 Raiding
Suggestion Description: Back in the "Old days" criminals could flank the bases they were defending after their NLR was finished, the information had to be gained after the NLR timer to enable you to flank. This was much better as it stopped police from waiting for their NLR to come and re-enforce, a lot of raids recently police will camp and wait for another wave which on paper makes it impossible for the PLPD to lose raids.

5.3 Currently states - "Players who died whilst being raided may also not return to the situation until it has finished.". I feel this should be changed to "Players who died whilst being raided may return after their NLR has expired, as long as the information that their friends need a flank has been received after their NLR timer has expired.".

NEW SUGGESTION, FOLLOWING PEOPLE'S RESPONSES:
Police should not be allowed to respond back to shootouts they have already died in.

Why should this be added?:
- Currently, police can wait for their dead officers to respawn so they can come back, which makes it impossible for the raiders to win if police use this tactic.
- Flanking is much more fun and added the element of snipers and silencers being used more often.
- Can be more tactical with flanking, by having to utilise different areas of the map to enable you to get a good flank

What negatives could this have?:
- Only con I could see is crim vs crim, if crims who die in a base can flank it would make raiding harder as you have 10 minutes to be in and out. However, the rule could state that if criminals are raiding you you are not allowed to come back until the situation is over. I just wanted to get the community's opinion on this, as I am on the fence about it myself.

 

[walnash]

I think that if you die you shouldn't be allowed to come back period. The way cops play nowadays is just have one officer float about and relay the info back to the ones who respawn and causes a shootout lasting more that 30 minutes

 

[TylerReadman1]

I think that if you die you shouldn't be allowed to come back period. The way cops play nowadays is just have one officer float about and relay the info back to the ones who respawn and causes a shootout lasting more that 30 minutes

Either this or allow it for both sides, either way crims still have to take extra steps like going to get a gun out. usually always more cops on than crims in an org too + there is much more TFU etc now, so cops are better equipped (as they should be!!).

 

[Maia]

1. PLPD loses tons of raids as it is already, you should be the one to get the fuck away while you can
2. Applying this would result in endless shootouts which was the case back in the day and even if it was fun, its currently a terrible idea considering the player count

If anything, I think you should advocate to make PD abide by NLR as well and there are some arguments that can be heard but I dont agree with your suggestion as it stands

 

[Inchs]

The idea of the rule is to balance it out realistically, a police force doesn't have a max number of cops and if you killed an entire station worth of police you'd have an army on you

 

[Birksy]

1. PLPD loses tons of raids as it is already, you should be the one to get the fuck away while you can
2. Applying this would result in endless shootouts which was the case back in the day and even if it was fun, its currently a terrible idea considering the player count

If anything, I think you should advocate to make PD abide by NLR as well and there are some arguments that can be heard but I dont agree with your suggestion as it stands

Yeah, I agree, I do think the PD and Civs need to follow the same rules in order to make it fair. It's not much of a problem with civ vs civ at the moment in my opinion.

I will edit this when I’m back on my PC tomorrow so that both sides cops and civs cannot come back.

 

[Eric Jonson]

The idea of the rule is to balance it out realistically, a police force doesn't have a max number of cops and if you killed an entire station worth of police you'd have an army on you

Glad to see someone thinking my way. Raiding is supposed to be hard. You are supposed to have an endless amount of cops come after you. This is a serious RP server after all.

 

[steelo]

I simply think that the NLR should apply to the police as well. This is a logical simplification of a rule-set that is already in place. If you are police and you die at an Office raid, do not return to Office. If you are a criminal and you die at an Office raid, do not return to Office. This allows for shootouts to fizzle out in a natural way and come to a conclusion without respawn's being a concern.

Not only do I believe that this change could benefit the gameplay experience, I believe it would also simplify a rule, creating a bit more clarity for new players.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

Either this or allow it for both sides, either way crims still have to take extra steps like going to get a gun out. usually always more cops on than crims in an org too + there is much more TFU etc now, so cops are better equipped (as they should be!!).

Definitely not for both sides. The best solution is if you die you’re out of the fight. If people are allowed back in after NLR it takes out the fear factor of 1 life, makes shootouts last way too long and gives cops way too big of an advantage because criminals have to setup to coordinate a PD wipe while PD just Zerg with free rifles or pistols wearing armor.

 

[TylerReadman1]

Definitely not for both sides. The best solution is if you die you’re out of the fight. If people are allowed back in after NLR it takes out the fear factor of 1 life, makes shootouts last way too long and gives cops way too big of an advantage because criminals have to setup to coordinate a PD wipe while PD just Zerg with free rifles or pistols wearing armor.

The PD already get to come back after NLR wdym, so you allow it for both sides or you don't allow it at all for either.

 

[rxsm]

The PD already get to come back after NLR wdym, so you allow it for both sides or you don't allow it at all for either.

allow it for when against cops but not against civs...

 

[MalekIsWeird]

The PD already get to come back after NLR wdym, so you allow it for both sides or you don't allow it at all for either.

What…? That message meant me saying I disagree with coming back after you die in a scenario at all for both cops and criminals. Both should be restricted by NLR because the numbers become uneven otherwise and it’s unbalanced.

 

[andreW]

Coming from a humble point of view, I dislike PD and still do. I feel as though PD should be abolished and we have a governing criminal org instead. And yes we should allow for crims to come back and flank because it's boring while everyones having fun and u gotta wait cos u got 1 tapped by a officer and then u gotta wait 5 minutes to respawn and then u cant even go back like bruh cmon mayn quit playing with me man just let me play the game and have fun and my fun is shooting the police right in the nogging ygm?

 

[GSOLAR]

TLDR: sole surviving cops should act realistically, possibly notifying criminals of all cops being wiped out could solve the problem. Very hard to solve problem cuz of balancing issues.

My personal problem with PD waiting out NLR and coming back after isn’t that its unfair. It’s that I never know when all of them died. I remember moments in Office where we wiped raiders and a whole police force. Only for 1 officer camping the stairs waiting for reinforcements to come in. Which isn’t realistic from the sole surviving officers pov. Imagine irl all your fellow officers died. You would either fall back or die with your comrades. If the last cop would fall back. It would make sense reinforcements come. But camping the stairs is endangering his life.
Also a thing to note is that in the hectic defense of such raids. It comes down to guessing whether all cops are dead and you can push out. Pushing out is the way ofc, but now knowing if there are any tfu left alive camping stairs is the issue here.
Making it so that cops can’t reinforce would solve the issue but would make it too op for criminals. In my opinion this is an unsolveable issue. Both options gives opposite sides a big edge. Only thing I see as a possibility is some staff whos watching the fight unfold whilst invisible. Is to notify the criminals with one of those “you’re doing something stupid” prompts to let them know staying at their base considering the chances of succes when escaping are high.

Maybe this problem is impossible to fix, maybe not. It sure as hell needs alot of thought put in it.

 

[GSOLAR]

Also shouldn’t be allowed to enlist as cop to join a fun ongoing raid or bank heist. It completely messes with the idea of a raid/heist being worth doing. If people see the current police force and decide the odds are in their favor. New cops enlisting messes up the odds and the crims judgement.
Just some food for thought.

 

[KeiwaM]

The reason I dislike ideas like these is that it encourages people to say "welp, now we killed the entire police force, might aswell linger around and collect all the guns and just spend lots of time here" instead of "lets get the fuck out".

Right now, there's a rush when you kill cops. After a bank robbery recently, Ayjay and myself scrambled to get all the guns under a time pressure and get the hell out before the cops would show up again. If I knew the police couldn't respond again, I would have taken my sweet ass time. The way it works now really sets the expectations that if you stick in the area, they're just gonna keep coming. It's on YOU to leave the area. Not the police to stop responding.
Same argument can be made for bases. You get raided and win, you either clean up quick or you get the hell out and find a new place to live. It's not impossible, and it has the intended effect: Making criminals work quicker to go in to hiding, or punish them for being too greedy and slow. And in the end, that's the only reason you're losing to NLR-respawned cops: Greed.

In essence, what @Maia said

 

[Ashur]

If there is one officer left it is very easy to leave the area, which is what the rules technically already tell you to do.
In roleplay you are not supposed to stay longer than neccesary to get all the guns for example, instead you can grab what you see on the way and you should get out of there

The longer you wait the more chance there is of you dying or getting arrested.

The rule itself is not the problem, I feel like sometimes people don't understand it.

 

[Sindarin]

imo its pretty useful for cops to be able to return, gives raiders pressure to try and escape, like they would need to realistically

 

[MalekIsWeird]

The reason I dislike ideas like these is that it encourages people to say "welp, now we killed the entire police force, might aswell linger around and collect all the guns and just spend lots of time here" instead of "lets get the fuck out".

Right now, there's a rush when you kill cops. After a bank robbery recently, Ayjay and myself scrambled to get all the guns under a time pressure and get the hell out before the cops would show up again. If I knew the police couldn't respond again, I would have taken my sweet ass time. The way it works now really sets the expectations that if you stick in the area, they're just gonna keep coming. It's on YOU to leave the area. Not the police to stop responding.
Same argument can be made for bases. You get raided and win, you either clean up quick or you get the hell out and find a new place to live. It's not impossible, and it has the intended effect: Making criminals work quicker to go in to hiding, or punish them for being too greedy and slow. And in the end, that's the only reason you're losing to NLR-respawned cops: Greed.

In essence, what @Maia said

Well at the same time how do you balance that with hypothetically around 25 cops on where if in a scenario for example, tfu was to die. They just have patrol stall then tfu comes back and does more damage to crims (not to mention the very real threat of the other 20 armored pistol cops surrounding you).

I get that the realism of hastily needing to get out and punishing greed is great, I don’t think that I would be willing to give up a balanced playing field which is fun for both sides just for that though.

This is why people are saying crims should be allowed back due to it being the compromise which sustains the greed punishment but gives somewhat of a help in balancing the scales back to a fun level. It’s people risking their guns and money and drugs vs an army of armored enemies with free guns and cars so when you wipe police you damn well earned that.

 

[Ashur]

Well at the same time how do you balance that with hypothetically around 25 cops on where if in a scenario for example, tfu was to die. They just have patrol stall then tfu comes back and does more damage to crims (not to mention the very real threat of the other 20 armored pistol cops surrounding you).

I get that the realism of hastily needing to get out and punishing greed is great, I don’t think that I would be willing to give up a balanced playing field which is fun for both sides just for that though.

This is why people are saying crims should be allowed back due to it being the compromise which sustains the greed punishment but gives somewhat of a help in balancing the scales back to a fun level. It’s people risking their guns and money and drugs vs an army of armored enemies with free guns and cars so when you wipe police you damn well earned that.

If there is 20 cops doesnt mean 20 cops have to respond, the more you kill, the more will come, this happens IRL aswell.
You don't think the whole force will show up if you shoot one of them?
And if you wipe one PD the next one will just come, so it does seem realistic in that way.

And the patrol is easy to pass, just get in your car and drive off, if they follow you, disable their car and escape again