Warning Dispute (Moon)

[Ryan Mushroom]

Punishment Type: Warning
Appeal Type: Dispute[Evidence]
Which staff member issued the punishment?: @Moonyx
How long were you banned/blacklisted for?: Not Applicable

Your Steam Name: Cromwell
Your Roleplay Name: Ryan Mushroom
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:1:855646723

Why were you punished?: 3.4 - User shot an officer over minor charges during a stolen vehicle pursuit

Why should this appeal be considered?: I believe this is not a fair warning, and I have provided a detailed explanation of my perspective and timestamps and explanations of why I had the right to shoot in this scenario according to
"Some valid reasons to kill police officers include:

Risk of a long prison sentence, typically 7 years or more
Preventing the imminent detection of drug production.
Committing a violent crime police would reasonably use lethal force to apprehend you for."


**My Perspective of the events**

Me and my friend together tried to steal a green car outside bazaar, I wanted to go to PD to raid the police station to free a friend of mine who has recently been arrested and the other guy wanted to go to the bank to raid it, I was under pressure as he has just been whisked away about 2 minutes before and wanted to free him before the sentence was up and get a fun RP Police Raid out of it. We both started crow barring the car so we had the best chance of getting in and luckily my friend managed to get the car on his 5th or so attempt, I jumped in the car at the same time as him and we was going to drop me off at the intersection-ish area to run and quickly start the PD raid so we reversed out onto the road and he started driving fast.

We where driving away when a Police car tried to ram us as can be seen in the video, and the for some reason an ambulance? The Police continue to chase up and one finally catches up to us to which my friend explains to the officer he will pull up somewhere safer so we can talk, but the Officer rams us up into the wall of the Highway and tells us to get out the car in the middle of the highway.

I get out of the car, and at the moment I have a gun on me which I should not, at the time I believed I had drugs on me (looking back at the clip I am aware I left them in my storage), this Police Officer at the time was not following what I believed was the right course of action and from my perspective was being very forceful and aggressive even though he clearly heard my friend explain he would pull up somewhere safe.
In fear of my gun being confiscated, going to Jail for helping to steal the car, believing I had drugs on me as I had my personal bong which I usually carry with weed and assisting with the entire situation I shot and killed the Police Officer.


Looking back on it , I should have made it more apparent to the officer that I had a gun out an was threatening him and in future I will strive to do this but sometimes with the situations being so fast paced and rapid it is very hard to be perfect I am sure every member of the server will understand to a degree.

I would like also to add, after my attempt to talk to the Moderator and discuss it, he told me something along the lines of dont try to steal cars then, even after I asked him what the thing I SHOULD have done in the situation I was in. I still wholeheartedly do not understand what I was supposed to do, If I was to get out and surrender to the Officer I would have been given a sentence of 7+ years so by the logic of the Moderator who warned me I would have had every right to kill him as for 3.4 Putting your Life at Risk

Additional Information: **Crime Explanation/Video Timestamps**

Before the entire thing even happened I was in possession of a Walter which is a firearm and was fully intent on raiding the PD (which I started shortly after) all this which means I am liable for that are shown and proven in the video and ontop of that had crowbars which by the rule are items that for intent to cause damage, because they are used for breaking into houses, breaking handcuffs or stealing cars.

7.3 Possession of Offensive Weapons

Any person who is in possession of any offensive weapon in a public area without a reasonable excuse commits an offence. Offensive weapons include, but are not necessarily limited to the following, firearms, baseball bats, knives, machetes, or improvised/adapted items with the intent to harm or cause damage.
Misdemeanor - liable to 2 years maximum imprisonment, $2,500 maximum fine and asset forfeiture. (2 Years)

00:00 - 00:10 -
6.7 Attempting or Planning a Crime

No person shall attempt or plan to commit a crime. A person who does so shall be liable for punishment as if they had committed the offence.
Liable to half of what the offence was if had been committed.

11.6 Theft

Any person who dishonestly appropriates any possession belonging to another person commits a criminal offence.
Misdemeanor - liable to 3 years maximum imprisonment, $3,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture. (1 Year 6 Months)

7.6 Transport of Offensive Weapons

A person does not act unlawfully under articles 7.3, 7.4 or 7.5 if they are transporting an offensive weapon in a way that is direct and immediate between places of secure storage, such as a vehicle trunk or storage chest.
Misdemeanor - liable to 2 years maximum imprisonment, $3,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture. (2 Years)

00:22 -00:26 -
You can quite literally hear my partners response to me explaining to him my intent to go to PD and raid it, hence even having the gun in the first place

6.7 Attempting or Planning a Crime

No person shall attempt or plan to commit a crime. A person who does so shall be liable for punishment as if they had committed the offence.
Liable to half of what the offence was if had been committed.

9.2 Physical Assault with an Offensive Weapon

Any person who applies or causes reckless injury to another person with any type of offensive weapon as defined in law 7.3, that is likely to cause great bodily injury commits an offence.
Felony - liable to 8 years maximum imprisonment and $7,000 maximum fine. (4 years)

01:07-01:14 -

Pulled out my gun on the highway and pointed it at the officer.
7.5 Displayal of Offensive Weapons

Any person who display an offensive weapon in a public setting commits an offense.
Felony - liable to 2 years maximum imprisonment, $4,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture. (2 Years)

EVERYTHING I HAVE LISTED HERE BEFORE THE SHOOTING ADDS UP TO A TOTAL SENTENCE OF 12 Years and 6 Months of Jail Time, the rule that I have been alleged to of broken indicates that SOME valid reasons to kill police officers include:
Risk of a long prison sentence, *TYPICALLY 7 years or more.

Some and Typically indicate there is a level of leway with the rule, I assume this is to ensure fair RP because ofcourse every situation comes with nuance and context. I dont see any reason this language was used otherwise, if it was to be followed exactly to how the admin

Ontop of all of this information, according to 6.7 Attempting or Planning a Crime states Liable to half of what the offence was if had been committed. I would of drove the car the exact same way that my partner did so that would make me half liable for which I have included here but I dont really personally consider part of it, but technically by the rules this is included.

12.12 Reckless Driving

Any person who drives any vehicle with disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of this offence.
Misdemeanor - liable to 4 years maximum imprisonment, $3,500 maximum fine and asset forfeiture. (2 Years)

12.11 Driving Without Due Care and Attention

Drivers must exercise complete care and attention when operating a vehicle.
Misdemeanor - liable to 3 years maximum imprisonment and $2,000 maximum fine. (1 Year 6 Months)

6.5 Cooperation with the Orders of Law Enforcement Personnel

Any person who fails to comply with the legal orders of a Law enforcement officer such as refusing to provide ID when detained or obstructs a Law enforcement officer executing their duties commits an offence.
Felony - liable to 5 years maximum imprisonment and $5,000 maximum fine. (2 years 6 months)

6.9 Failure to stop for a Law Enforcement Officer

Fleeing or attempting to elude a pursuing LEO commits an offence.
Felony - liable to 5 years maximum imprisonment and $4,000 maximum fine. (2 years 6 months)

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

**Correction towards the end**

Some and Typically indicate there is a level of leway with the rule, I assume this is to ensure fair RP because ofcourse every situation comes with nuance and context. I dont see any reason this language was used, if it was to be followed EXACTLY to 7 years it would say something like

The only valid reasons to kill police officers are:

• Long prison sentences, of 7 years or more at the time of the killing.

 

[Mini]

Under review

 

[Mini]

I wanted to go to PD to raid the police station to free a friend of mine who has recently been arrested

After doing some digging into the logs I can see that only 1 person was arrested for over 7 years and that was 18ish minutes before you killed the first officer, so who was you planning on breaking out of the police station or is this just an extremely poor fabricated justification for shooting cops in the first place?

Me and my friend together tried to steal a green car outside bazaar,

By stealing a car, you have immediately drawn attention to yourself as the car alarm will immediately alert the police of your current location, on top of that there is also a high chance that the car owner will shoot you in the back of your head (you're lucky it didn't happen) so for someone who wanted to raid the PD you've created an awful lot of attention in the preparation.

You have included a bunch of laws into this dispute but only 1 of them would justify shooting cops, which funnily enough is the law you broke when you shot the cops, so how can you justify risking your life and freedom essentially over just stealing a car? All this information in your dispute and it still doesn't make sense to me as to why you done what you done.

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

I think its a bit unfair you immediately assume its a fabricated excuse considering I went through the length to explain the entire thing, show video and can simply tell you the arrestees name and you can see he was arrested close to the event

"After doing some digging into the logs I can see that only 1 person was arrested for over 7 years and that was 18ish minutes before you killed the first officer, so who was you planning on breaking out of the police station or is this just an extremely poor fabricated justification for shooting cops in the first place?"

My friend was whisked away in a police car as I said 2 minutes prior, as you can literally hear in the video the driver of the car say I want him to drive me to the police station and watch me get out and hide at slums. My intent was very clearly to go to the police station with intent to break him out. His name ingame at some point in time was Fish Edwards the only reason I dont know his exact name is because he has changed it so many times you can also check that in the logs that he was handcuffed at one point in time close to the event brought to the police station for processing. Just because he wasnt actively in jail at the exact moment the intent to break him out occurred does not mean it invalidates law as I was in a stolen car barreling towards the police station, with a gun and absolute full intent to PD raid

6.7 Attempting or Planning a Crime states Liable to half of what the offence was if had been committed. I would of drove the car the exact same way that my partner did so that would make me half liable for which I have included here but I dont really personally consider part of it, but technically by the rules this is included.


"
By stealing a car, you have immediately drawn attention to yourself as the car alarm will immediately alert the police of your current location, on top of that there is also a high chance that the car owner will shoot you in the back of your head (you're lucky it didn't happen) so for someone who wanted to raid the PD you've created an awful lot of attention in the preparation.

"You have included a bunch of laws into this dispute but only 1 of them would justify shooting cops, which funnily enough is the law you broke when you shot the cops, so how can you justify risking your life and freedom essentially over just stealing a car? All this information in your dispute and it still doesn't make sense to me as to why you done what you done. "

I Included 6 laws I had broken before I even drew my gun in the first place I am not sure where you are coming from when you say only 1 law specifically would justify shooting cops as the rule I have been alleged to of broken states

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

Risk of a long prison sentence, *TYPICALLY 7 years or more.

Everything I listed falls within the law, if the police man knew of all of the stuff I listed I would of received 7+ years.

I can explain more in-depth if needed but I really feel like I have explained it all here.

 

[Mini]

I think you’re explaining too in depth to be honest. On another note, are you aware that charges aren’t stackable? For example if you evade after murdering someone you will only get 10 years not 10 years + 5 years ?

 

[Mini]

Risk of a long prison sentence, *TYPICALLY 7 years or more.

Everything I listed falls within the law, if the police man knew of all of the stuff I listed I would of received 7+ years.

I can explain more in-depth if needed but I really feel like I have explained it all here.

Key word is IF the police man knew all the stuff you listed, I don’t think they did considering you were a passenger princess

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

"I think you’re explaining too in depth to be honest. On another note, are you aware that charges aren’t stackable? For example if you evade after murdering someone you will only get 10 years not 10 years + 5 years ?"

Considering you dont seem to understand what I am saying I still dont even think I have explained it well enough, this is an appeal where I sell my side of the story to you so you understand against the action of another staff member/friend of yours. If I didnt explain this enough you would've just assumed I was minging and jumped immediately to the side of the other mod.

I dont understand what you mean by charges arent stackable, it does not explain that anywhere I can see in the rules. When I have been arrested and friends of mine, and we have committed more than one crime we have often been put in for multiple things so I dont understand where that comes from. Even when I played police, I can click on multiple charges for the sentancing


"Key word is IF the police man knew all the stuff you listed, I don’t think they did considering you were a passenger princess"

In the video I was clearly trying to steal the car with him, it was my full intent to steal the car aswell as him, I was not a "passenger princesss" I was an accomplice in the crime RP situation, the rule states

• Risk of a long prison sentence, typically 7 years or more

Everything I have outlined adds up to more than 7 years anyways, I believed there was a risk to over 7 year jail time and I have no doubt there would of been if I had surrendered instead of shooting the Police, if they do not stack that would mean for me to have any chance to shoot a Police Officer by your definition I would have to of initially commited a crime that is over 7 years and considering the only rules that from the beginning are over 7 years when you commit them are. I also had a crowbar on me which shows intent to Steal, a Gun and I was an accomplice in the entire thing plus the intent to raid PD.

9.2 Physical Assault with an Offensive Weapon​

Any person who applies or causes reckless injury to another person with any type of offensive weapon as defined in law 7.3, that is likely to cause great bodily injury commits an offence.

Felony - liable to 8 years maximum imprisonment and $7,000 maximum fine.

9.5 Murder​

No person shall take the life of another person with the intent of causing death or severe injury.

Felony - liable to 10 years maximum imprisonment and $10,000 maximum fine.

9.6 Manslaughter​

No person shall take the life of another person through negligence.

Felony - liable to 7 years maximum imprisonment, $7,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture.

11.10 Robbery​

Any person who steals, and immediately before or at the time of doing so, uses force on any person or seeks to put any person in fear of being then and there subjected to force.

Felony - liable to 7 years maximum imprisonment, $7,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture.

11.11 Aggravated Burglary​

Any person who commits a burglary and at the time has with them any firearm or imitation firearm, any offensive weapon, or any explosive.

Felony - liable to 9 years maximum imprisonment, $9,000 maximum fine and asset forfeiture.
These are the only laws I could find that state the sentance from commiting will be over 7 years, and if stacking doesnt count that means that these crimes are the only reason ever to shoot a Police Officer, if thats the case what if I am raiding and I havent actively broken any doors I am just part of the crew with a gun, do I just have to surrender because I havent commited enough to shoot at the police? No you dont surrender.

Furthermore rule 3.4 uses language that indicates

Some valid reasons to kill police officers include:

• Risk of a long prison sentence, typically 7 years or more
• Preventing the imminent detection of drug production.
• Committing a violent crime police would reasonably use lethal force to apprehend you for.

As stated above, some and typically are not language that indicates that there cannot be exceptions to the rules even though I dont think I am an exception, I assume this is to allow leway into stuff because if you take every rule at complete face value with no context to situations that occur the majority of players break them every single day but ofcourse you dont hunt down everyone because the rules arent there to watch every single player from the moment he joins to the moment he leaves to make sure he didnt break a single one even in a minor way but to make sure that Roleplay is upheld and the server doesnt devolve into chaos. I actually believe I followed 2 other rules in the situation, In real life in the exact same circumstances this would have happened and happens alot just look at The United States of America

2.1 Play Realistically​

This game mode aims to emulate real life, and as such, players are expected to play realistically at all times; exceptions can be made where appropriate - any such Exceptions are purely determined by an administrator’s discretion.

3.3 Realistic Actions​

All actions a player makes must be done as realistically as possible, especially during combat; for example, when jumping up-to, or down-from somewhere, it must be done so slowly, carefully, and without resulting in injury to the player. Furthermore, players should take great care whilst climbing. Players should not attempt to boost people onto buildings or structures, nor should they climb onto objects which realistically would not hold their weight or use elevated defences.

 

[Mini]

You’re just not quite understanding here, yes you can be charged for multiple laws in the ARREST REASON but the length of time per law is not added on, therefore until you shot the police officer you were not going in for 7 or more years.

 

[Mini]

Furthermore, your ‘friend’ was not being arrested for 7 years or more either therefore it would not be justifiable to break him out.

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

Those are 2 very good points, I have plenty to say and ready to send to both but I would like to ask one thing before I do.

Can I request someone else looks at this, I do not believe you are actually taking me seriously as I can see you actively mocking me in the Shoutbox which is insane considering you are supposed to be the person helping me. It seems as if you already have made up your mind without actually helping or considering what I am saying even if by the rules I am wrong, which if anything the more I read by definition I still do not believe, you should be helping me have a detailed understanding of what I have to do in future scenarios. not engaging with in Mocking me for trying to dispute this, I am literally just trying to have fun on your server I am a avid Roleplayer from multiple communities and this is completely demotivating me from playing as you and the original Moderator who issued the warning seeming made up your minds before even considering the context I am applying.

It is very rude to say I am typing bible verses, this is a situation where a rule is being used in a context I do not think it was intended for ofcourse I am not going to write like a idiot and say "didnt break that rule free me" I am becoming increasingly demotivated to even play as are my friends watching this some of which even pay for the Premium.

If I cannot get someone else, I have more to say so I would like to continue.
I am completely fine if this appeal gets denied but there is clearly a massive flaw in 3.4 Putting your Life at Risk that needs to be addressed

 

[Ryan Mushroom]

**Mistake**

Corrected

 

[Mini]

It won’t be just me who decides the final verdict, there will either be 2 other enforcer/mods+ or an admin+

 

[Bnjemann]

Reviewed with @Mini @sza @Locksmith

Your justifications are showing a clear misunderstanding of the servers rules and laws. You cite that all the crimes that you had committed add up to something you can shoot cops over, however within law, you were not to receive such a sentence, because you don’t “stack” charges, your punishment aligns with the highest punishment for the law you broke.

An example of this is, If I tax evaded, which gives you a 2 year maximum sentence, then tried blackmailing the cop, which has a 5 year maximum sentence, all my crimes combined would limit the officer to giving me a 5 year sentence. They can list all the laws I broke but the punishment ceiling is limited on 5. Lieutenants may, under extreme circumstances, go above this, as long as there’s reason to. In your case, there isn’t one.

You claim you cannot find anything that states this, whilst you are reading off and citing the laws, it is there in the laws. For an Officer to do what you were under the impression the officers were going to do would be a violation of law 3.10:


“intent to raid the PD” would have been impossible to prove unless you directly admitted to it. Cops cannot prosecute you based on anything they cannot prove or haven’t seen sufficient evidence of, probable cause here requires something of certainty. Most people carry such articles on themselves.

@Mini Has highlighted another fact, that your friend was not being arrested for long enough or had done anything worth jailbreaking them over to begin with, which likely would have in turn ended up with a ban had you followed through with it. Furthermore, a single PPK and magazine is not sufficient equipment to raid the PD with. You should bring something better with more ammo and power for such a task, as it will likely result in your death defending yourself with 7 tiny bullets VS fully armoured TFOs.

Shooting at police officers is a risk that needs to be a relatively balanced out course of action for the act you are committing. In your case, there wasn’t any real solid reason as to why you’d jump to that conclusion. You have acted upon something you felt was appropriate however unfortunately in this case, it is, by the servers definition, it was not.

We understand your reasoning to believing this however, as outlined by the points above, that is how the rules regarding killing cops goes, and subsequently, the warning is entirely valid.