Ban Dispute (SNUSMUS)

[ClumsySpyTTV]

Punishment Type: Ban
Punishment Subtype: Server Ban
Appeal Type: Dispute[Evidence]
Which staff member issued the punishment?: @Snusmus
How long were you banned/blacklisted for?: 4 Days

Your Steam Name: ClumsySpyTTV
Your Roleplay Name: Sheamus Macklin
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:1:81746803

Why were you punished?: 3.4 - counter raided a property without investigating whether police was already involved - Banned for Enforcer SNUSMUS

Why should this appeal be considered?: Hi.

A staff report was opened in game 2 days ago, where it was closed as no further action as SNUSMUS decided there were no rule breaks. I then received a message 2 days later from SNUSMUS (see below) to say they was investigating it again?

https://imgur.com/FTgcJ7T

As I explained to SNUSMUS, we was inside Regals 4 and from the window we could see a raider in the regals car park just stood there on their phone stacking a load of guns in the car park, so we decided to counter raid it. I will attach clips below.

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As you can see from the first clip, this is when we started the counter raid and there was not a single police officer, car, shot fired or anything that would indicate a police presence. I made the decision to shoot from the window then push down, again, not a SINGLE police officer on scene. This civilian is just stood in the car park on their phone, they don't even have their gun out, it's on their back, as they just stand next to the guns?

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As my clipping software only clips for 1 minute this is the best I could provide of us actually being on the ground initiating the counter raid, again, not a single police officer on scene, the only shots we hear are what we believed are the raiders in R1, the perfect counter? Or so we thought.

The F6 was opened by SNUSMUS where I explained all of the above and provided clips and it was closed. Then for some reason, 2 days later they contacted me via discord to advise me that there was a SINGLE TFU officer in the bank car park because they had checked logs? We as a player do not have access to these logs and that makes it almost impossible to know there is an officer a mile away, by that logic, anybody starting a raid at slums would be getting banned for 3.4 as it's next to a police station, with police officers inside? I'm being facetious, but you get my drift.

In my opinion a ridiculously harsh punishment that had already in fact been dealt with? I'm at a loss as to how this has ended in a 4 day ban. You can see from the clips there's no police and unless we no-clip into god mode, it's impossible to know there is an officer in the bank car park. SNUSMUS advised we should have checked, my PC doesn't even render in the frames that far out.

I don't think this is a breach of 3.4, we did not KNOWINGLY counter with police on site and I'd like you to consider this appeal.

Thanks!

 

[213]

when we started the counter raid and there was not a single police officer, car, shot fired or anything that would indicate a police presence.

You should've assessed the entire area around Regals (bank, overpass, fire escape, main stairs, and all sides of the building) before starting the counterraid, not just the parking lot. You clearly heard shots prior to starting the counterraid and just assumed it was the raiders without having visual confirmation of who they were shooting at--they could have been shooting cops. The window you used to "investigate" gives you poor visibility of the area and is not sufficient enough to ensure the absence of government officials.

Your second clip clearly shows an ambulance and TFU vehicle on the highway with their lights on. Also, none of your clips (from start to finish) show the overpass/bank area, which is proof that you did not do your due diligence, and that is not something you need no-clip for. Had you taken the time to properly investigate, you likely would have spotted the officer that was on scene.

it's impossible to know there is an officer in the bank car park

You lived on the 4th floor of Regals. The view from the fire escape provides you valuable information and shows the bank parking lot just fine.

Whether you "KNOWINGLY" broke the rules, or not, ignorance is not a valid excuse.

 

[ClumsySpyTTV]

That logic is flawed, by that logic then every single raid at regals you would need to check the bank car park, every slums raid should not be started if there's a police car in the rear of the police station.

We could see in the car park a civilian with a gun on their back, making 0 attempt to shoot at anybody, they are just standing there looking after the guns, we can safely assume that means there is no police presence, otherwise they'd be shooting back right?

I do appreciate the response server helper and I look forward to a MOD reviewing it.

 

[213]

Rule 3.4 states that you shouldn't commit a violent or serious crime whilst in direct eyeshot of officers. Initiating a Slums raid whilst cops are in the PD parking lot, oblivious to a raid, does not fit that definition. Anyhow, you should always be investigating the area before committing crimes.

The difference in this case is that you are counterraiding. You will have to take additional measures and investigate thoroughly, which you put zero effort into doing. You keep failing to mention the shots that occurred right before you counterraided, which indicates the raid was ongoing. You don't have the slightest clue who was involved in that shootout; the police could've been flanking from the bank side and it seems like an officer was, indeed, present.

I will leave it at that and let those with enforcing capacities take over from here.

 

[ClumsySpyTTV]

If that's the case then the rules need to be clearly defined regarding counter-raiding, nearly every action taken by every player on the server is 3.4, it's kind of the point of the server isn't it? There's no clear rules regarding counter-raiding and so far all that's been explained is a SINGLE TFU was in the bank car park, against 3 heavily armed counter raiders, not really 3.4, the TFU is outgunned in this instance are they not?

Either way, there's clearly no police ON THE SCENE as we start the counter.

 

[ClumsySpyTTV]

Sorry can I just add as I only JUST NOTICED.
The TFU wasn't on scene, they was revived as we was counter-raiding. Which means that whilst a raid was STILL ON-GOING, a medic combat revived the TFU.

This would be the ambulance you can see in my 2nd clip on the highway, so using that logic, the medic also broke 3.4.

Please see image below;

https://imgur.com/JfCenQP

 

[Acerius]

Two seconds before you kill the person in your first clip which is Mage, Tinky dies to a Sergeant on the Regals Overpass, which are the shots you hear in your first clip, and Toby is killed by a Sergeant 27 seconds after you kill Mage.

It is quite possible you would have seen the gunfight happening had you conducted a more thorough check of whether police were on-scene and fighting the raiders. This is your responsibility as a counter-raider as you would have then been fighting two - maybe three - parties: the police, the defenders, and the original raiders. This is the reason we disallow counter-raiding with police on-scene as the risk would prove to be too great and in this case, this is absolutely true as - not only did you start countering when Toby and Tinky were fighting police - you both ended up dying to police.

As soon as you heard those shots in your first clip you should have stopped and checked where those shots were coming from, and whether it was potentially police.

Reviewed with @Collier and @Megasaw