PLPD Online Suggestion Home Owner Clause

[MalekIsWeird]

Suggestion Title: Home Owner Clause
Suggestion Description: Tyler Kushner V. City of Paralake

A form of clause that will specify that Law Enforcement Agents must STAY OUT of a property if the defenders are KNOWN beyond reasonable doubt to be INSIDE their property and actively defending it.

In order to breach a property, Officers must first ANNOUNCE their presence. After that, they must give ample time for the defenders to respond that they are present and actively defending. If a reasonable amount of time has passed to have given the defender(s) an opportunity to declare their presence or there is a belief beyond reasonable doubt that NO defenders are present at the property, then the Law Enforcement Agents may breach without waiting.

Why should this be added?:
- Less IA for the committee to deal with cops killing people for defending their homes
- Less Staff work for staff to deal with with cops killing people for defending their homes
- Defenders being killed less by mistake
- Duty Of Care being emphasized
- Allows for TFU to have more control over shootouts
- Stops pistol cops from rushing in before being directed to or without regard for their own supervisors, TFU or the safety of the homeowners.
- Less raids where Defenders accidentally start fighting cops cause their friend was just killed by mistake.

What negatives could this have?:
- Cops in general may end up waiting too long which could lead to frustration by frightened and panicked defenders who don't understand that they must declare their presence.
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What problem would this suggestion solve?: As officers push into a property, Home owners are at crucial risk of being mistaken for raiders. In the case of Kushner in the video below, the Officers did notably fail to announce. Nevertheless, it may be arguable whether they might have realized that Kushner was a home owner even if they announced due to them physically breaching without taking important cautionary steps to ensure that armed individuals inside the property being actively burglarized all MUST be hostile if they are armed to then be shot on sight. Evidently, Kushner was armed and defending his property, only when he was wounded immediately while fighting the criminals then almost killed as he barely escaped with his life when an Officer attempted to murder him with a revolver barely missing.

Useful Images: https://streamable.com/u6933u

 

[Goonsberg]

So to be clear;

TFU can no longer place breaches without announcing first?

You think there will be Less IAs by adding another policy for officers to break?

Officers cannot fulfil their basic duty of preserving life by entering a property to kill armed raiders, just because defenders are inside?

 

[kerzify]

Isn't this what is already in place? Once responding to a situation and arriving on scene, Police officers should be announcing themselves, I don't quite understand what you're suggesting?

 

[iiTzWasParsnip]

Isn't this what is already in place? Once responding to a situation and arriving on scene, Police officers should be announcing themselves, I don't quite understand what you're suggesting?

It would basically mean, police won't just be able to barge into a property if there is an active shootout inside until it is clear who is defenders and raiders until a given time has passed (5-10 seconds or so). Although I can see how this would cause complications and potential abuse by raiders. Officers do have to announce themselves already and this can help prevent such situations but it won't always work. I.e. you're an officer and you arrive on scene to an active shootout, where people are outside shooting into the property. As an officer you're allowed in this situation to shoot at the people outside the property even though they may be defenders.

I am not actually sure how this can be dealt with as announcing yourself in that situation without suitable cover or other officers with you, would probably just lead you to getting killed although there are a few situations where this would work out.

I think it really just comes down to officers not announcing themselves properly.

 

[kerzify]

It would basically mean, police won't just be able to barge into a property if there is an active shootout inside until it is clear who is defenders and raiders until a given time has passed (5-10 seconds or so). Although I can see how this would cause complications and potential abuse by raiders. Officers do have to announce themselves already and this can help prevent such situations but it won't always work. I.e. you're an officer and you arrive on scene to an active shootout, where people are outside shooting into the property. As an officer you're allowed in this situation to shoot at the people outside the property even though they may be defenders.

I am not actually sure how this can be dealt with as announcing yourself in that situation without suitable cover or other officers with you, would probably just lead you to getting killed although there are a few situations where this would work out.

I think it really just comes down to officers not announcing themselves properly.

Well in that case, I disgaree, There's active threat to life within an on-going raid, It would make absolutely no sense for officers to just disregard that and wait for the one of the parties (raiders / defenders) to win, It would cause complications, Although I do agree that officers should be announcing before entering any properties.

 

[iiTzWasParsnip]

Well in that case, I disgaree, There's active threat to life within an on-going raid, It would make absolutely no sense for officers to just disregard that and wait for the one of the parties (raiders / defenders) to win, It would cause complications, Although I do agree that officers should be announcing before entering any properties.

Not wrong, I suppose it would be the defenders responsibility, being outside to be wary of police arrival and trying their best to make sure they don't get shot.

 

[Mini]

The officers identifying themselves is already a thing and can be found in the handbook here
There may be times where an officer doesn't announce themselves until the last minute i.e., TFU announcing as they're blowing the door off when raiding a property, but this is primarily for officer safety reasons and isn't technically in direct breach of this policy and would be justifiable in the event of someone challenging their actions or in the event of a complaint.

As for the part where officers should stay outside a property where defenders are known to be inside, this in a sense is already in place kinda...

The law as it stands, states that Emergency Service workers may enter any private property if it is necessary for the execution of their duties. meaning that if for example, a raid has occurred and there are no bodies visible inside the property, nor does the officer have reasonable belief there are bodies in the property, entering the property is no longer necessary to which the officers shouldn't be entering without the reason to do so. However, if there are bodies inside the property and the occupiers are willing to drag the bodies and other pieces of evidence out then again, cops no longer need to enter. The majority of the cases where cops enter a property after a raid whilst the defenders are still alive is because the defenders aren't willing to hand over the firearms or bodies, or they simply don't open the door to officers.

Everything you've suggested here is already technically in place and works quite well as it stands, there's not really a need to change anything. If your drugs are visible and you get raided and cops find them, that is your own fault really, and you should always take steps to hide your drugs from being visible from the door. Additionally, drugs are illegal, and illegal activities carry a risk, so if you don't want to risk losing anything, just don't do crimes.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

I understand why it might seem like this is suggestion may benefit raiders lying to police, or defenders hiding drugs and acquired guns. I want to reassure everyone while probably could be a downside to some people, this is not the intention or aim of the idea.

The aim of this idea is to add something to make police response more calculated, protect defenders and homeowners from having that “oh shit” realization and Maybe it could be not through this form, but If we want cops to take the role more seriously, then we probably should also think about things like this even if this one may not be favored.

 

[Tilin]

In the clip you act as a flanker. No announcement would've saved you and you are not really a typical defender.

This is a non-issue and flanking always comes with risks. High risk, high reward.

You can't exactly expect officers to not see you as a raider...

 

[MalekIsWeird]

In the clip you act as a flanker. No announcement would've saved you and you are not really a typical defender.

This is a non-issue and flanking always comes with risks. High risk, high reward.

You can't exactly expect officers to not see you as a raider...

The point made is clear and while it may be a fair point, I’d just like to also be clear that is not me. The person in this video is a different individual, albeit that person did agree that the behavior of the officers in that footage was reckless.

 

[Jack P]

I understand why it might seem like this is suggestion may benefit raiders lying to police, or defenders hiding drugs and acquired guns. I want to reassure everyone while probably could be a downside to some people, this is not the intention or aim of the idea.

The aim of this idea is to add something to make police response more calculated, protect defenders and homeowners from having that “oh shit” realization and Maybe it could be not through this form, but If we want cops to take the role more seriously, then we probably should also think about things like this even if this one may not be favored.

Generally speaking, when defenders KNOW cops is present they should try their best to hide inside rooms and not walk around in their property to chase down raiders and shoot, this ensures cops knowing EXACTLY who the threat is and who isn't. Ofc if the room you're inside is being breached by raiders, you HAVE the raid and SHOULD defend, but if you keep running around trying to kill people whilst you're defending and well aware cops is around or on the way, then you are the one to blame for being mistaken as a raider.

Cops are trying to act as fast and swift as possible to preserve as much life as possible, if they have to wait outside, this leaves for more room and time for raiders to find where the defenders are and shoot them, it also leaves for even MORE time to call for flankers.

The only mistake the cops did in this video was not announcing, them shooting somebody who looks like a raider for hiding with guns drawn in the open under a staircase, I would have lit him up myself too.