V6 Feedback Thread

[phoondos]

I've decided to expand upon the criticisms I posted in the V5 WEEKEND suggestion, and open a thread for others to voice their compliments and criticisms in an effort to help the developers improve V7. I've moved anything about INFRA to the end of the post to put more of a focus on everything else.

- Bazaar's current iteration looks like a slapdash attempt to fix what wasn't broken. Having more Bazaar shops was a problem, yes, but what we have right now looks strange. A 1 floor shopping center with a 40 foot ceiling? Couple that with the clothing shop having a railing that drops down into the shopping center, which is something I've never seen done before, in real life or in a videogame. In my opinion, there was definitely a better solution to Bazaar being dead than this. Don't even get me started on the random connection to the subway, which adds onto the feeling that this iteration was rushed. Subway tiles on one wall, then it magically becomes the wall of the shopping center? I know this one is a minor thing to get hung up on, but I can't help but keep noticing it every time I go into the Bazaar.

- Slums Warehouse is a property I asked for when playtesting, but it didn't get added until after V6 came out. I like it, but it needs a better interior design. Also... why the fuck can't I shoot through the glass?

- Suburbs is mostly an improvement if you ignore the fact that it's basically on an island separated from the rest of the map. It's probably the 2nd most empty part of the map, with the 1st being the forest.

- I like how the forest looks. I don't like the roads going through the forest. It's like they were designed to intentionally cause as many crashes as possible. The decision to keep the roads blank with no lines painted on them is most of the problem here.

- The roundabout next to Bazaar parking makes no sense to me. I would most certainly not miss it if it were removed. If I were to make a list of things to be removed from V6, this would be right at the top, because this is the most nonsensical part of the map in and of itself, in my opinion. Furthermore, the entrance to business makes no sense to me - it's a long asphalt corridor that leads into a roundabout with no yield signs or street paint, and leads into a 1 floor parking garage with no gates, gatehouses, bollards, etc. This is one of the weakest parts of the map in my opinion.

- Tidals is okay.

- J&M Glass Co. should've been moved somewhere else instead of outright removed. I like the road that replaces it, but I want Glass Co. back.

- Industrial 3 is cool. I remember seeing it during a playtest and I thought it was awesome.

- Cuckgate is cool. I knew for a fact it would be the most popular property in the server when I playtested it, but I think The Bunker took its spot eventually.

- Lakeview is great. Reminds me of that one building from Evocity. Same issue as Suburbs, though.

- The wood cabins are largely okay, but I really don't like the one next to Lakeview. This is nearly impossible to raid if PD are on, and if you are not a large group. Cool idea though.

- Running away from the police using vehicles got harder in this version of the map, for better and for worse. I wish we had more ways to outsmart Police than to just do loops on the highway and go on the wrong side of the road. Unfortunately this means I'm agreeing with one of Malek's suggestions, xP. Something like removing the bollards from the bridge between Lakeview and Suburbs would be great.

- Parker Tunnel is cool. It was one of my favorite things to see in the original V6 trailer.

- Slums is cool, I was okay with both the current and previous iterations.

- Typically, gas stations only have one-way exits when it's a high-volume gas station, one with hundreds of pumps like a Costco or Sam's Club gas station. Gas stations with single pumps never have one-way exits, because they're supposed to be entered from both sides so people can access both pumps no matter where they come from.

- Bank is cool, but being stuck within the bank during a robbery got old fast. I miss driving around the city and sniping cops, but this cannot come back with the current city's layout.

- Office's current iteration is... okay. Better than the first and second iterations, and a shit-ton better than V5 Office for raiding.

- Foundry needs to be removed or reworked substantially. It is incredibly difficult to deal with 9 kilometer sightlines that have little to no counterplay (bombs can't reach most of the defenses within the property). This wouldn't be as big of a problem if the entrances weren't so funnel-y, and if long-range optics were actually viable to use outside of specific situations. There's other issues with the long-range optics on the server that don't fit here, but if you go looking in the suggestions section of the forums, I'm sure you'll find what I'm talking about soon enough.

- The area around Roadcrew is heavily underutilized, and I'd love to see more things there in the future. Maybe more player-owned shops, or apartments? Not sure.

- PD is cool. I'm a big fan of the new garage and interior, as it adds more depth and defensive capability to any PD defending a raid.

- Storage is cool. I liked the old one as well but it had the same problem the gas stations do with the one-way exits, so I'm honestly okay that it's gone.

- City shop is great. We need more shops or player-owned properties in the City.

- The Bunker is better now, but still insanely broken. Cool idea, but the depth added to the tunnels makes no sense. Adding 3 lanes with no environmental garnishing makes it look so weird, and it makes it feel rushed just like Bazaar does currently. Why the fuck does the middle lane have 2 perfectly sized columns meant for players to hide behind, with it dropping off to a ladder? There's no rhyme or reason here. If you're going to make balance changes to the map, at least polish them like the rest of the map.







- Speaking about The Bunker...




- After a while of playing on V6, it seemed like it took too much inspiration from whatever @peeps was playing at the time. I'm not saying that's bad, but I find it jarring to see so many textures and models ripped from INFRA, to be Frankenstein-ed into a RP map. The assets in this game aren't conducive to a modern city, despite INFRA containing some city assets. That's not to mention the usage of the Morko concept from INFRA in the V6 easter-eggs, which also take an insane amount of concepts/ideas from INFRA. I would much rather have a RP map that mostly used TopHattWaffles RealWorldTextures than something that tries too hard to look and sound like INFRA. As a result of this "inspiration", we have properties like The Bunker and Foundry, which are, in my opinion, out of place and harm the raiding meta by being extremely difficult to attack no matter how big your group is. That's also not to mention the similarities between The Bunker and a building you see about 1 hour 30 min into INFRA, which also confirmed my suspicion of V6 taking too much inspiration from INFRA in the first place. You also have the STALBURG Pumping Station, and Stalburg Tunnel...

Stalburg being the entire namesake of the wiki pages created for anything in the INFRA universe (INFRA and Obenseuer), as well as the location where INFRA and Obenseuer take place.


V6 also takes the mysterious Morko from INFRA, and uses both the models, textures, and namesake for its own easter-egg.


This style of paper is not too dissimilar from the papers you can find in INFRA.

Another thing you can notice between the easter-egg and INFRA's story is the theme of corruption at the government level, but this isn't exactly a super niche concept to introduce in a story.

Look. I understand that Garry's Mod is THE game where textures and models are ripped from other games to either port or augment in some new form. I understand that permission was given for assets to be used, but I still think this is too far. IT IS OKAY TO USE THE MODELS AND TEXTURES FROM INFRA. I DON'T CARE!!! SOME PEOPLE HAVE MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY HERE, WHICH IS OUTLINED IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF SENTENCES. Leaving little breadcrumbs that allude to INFRA would've been fine, but we're straight up taking names, characters, main story concepts, and iconography from the game. The identity of Paralake City has been corrupted by the lore of INFRA, and it results in a map that feels weird to inhabit when keeping these concepts (the easter-egg, Morko, The Bunker, etc.) in mind. I really hope that V7 tries to build it's own identity like V5 and prior had.





These are the "flaws" I could come up with on the top of my head. This was not intended to insult anyone, but rather to offer my criticisms on the map after a long time of playing it through different iterations. The polish that I see in this current version makes me incredibly hopeful for V7, and I hope that we can have an even greater map than V6 when it comes out. The reason I made this thread in the first place was to separate it from the posts made in the V5 WEEKEND thread, so we could have a civilized discussion about the good (and bad) about this map. This way, we could help the developers improve the map for V7 and onward. Again, this thread's purpose is not to insult anyone, no matter what language I use in this main post and onward. I would've gone crazy a long time ago if I had to develop an RP map for 128 players using Hammer+, so I salute the developers for having to go through this at all.

 

[Sorle]

Unwarranted and doesn't contribute to the purpose of the forums please rethink posting

 

[Acerius]

One criticism that you've put here which I don't agree with/don't really get is the use of INFRA as inspiration either through use of textures, the Bunker itself, or the easter egg for V6. What does it matter where the design language/creative cues came from, and what bearing does it have on how you play?

Also, I know three shopping centres/malls in the UK that I have visited which have direct access built into the fabric of the building for metro or mainline rail services, so I don't really get that criticism of Bazaar either. If anything, Bazaar access could be further enhanced by having a direct connection off of the highway.

And basically every petrol/gas station I've been to in and around London, including motorway/highway services, are all one-way systems regardless of their size, so I don't get that either.

Nonetheless, of course there are legitimate improvements or considerations to be had elsewhere many of which you have captured, but those three above I don't really understand what the associated negative impacts of them are.

 

[Bolli]

Peeps did ask for explicit permission to use the content from INFRA for V6 and the INFRA devs being really cool people let us use it. The map would have taken much longer to make if not for that.

I don't think its fair at all to say that peeps "ripped" off INFRA, she is just paying an homage to a game that she loves.

 

[Collier]

The above aside, I also think the INFRA textures work and are very much consistent with the design language of V6. I don't see why the lore stuff would be an issue either as it has 0 impact on how the map plays...

 

[phoondos]

One criticism that you've put here which I don't agree with/don't really get is the use of INFRA as inspiration either through use of textures, the Bunker itself, or the easter egg for V6. What does it matter where the design language/creative cues came from, and what bearing does it have on how you play?

It's my personal opinion that it was one step too far if it was meant to pay homage to the original. I'm not really a fan of the elements that were used from INFRA's story in the map's storytelling, both environmental and literal.

Also, I know three shopping centres/malls in the UK that I have visited which have direct access built into the fabric of the building for metro or mainline rail services, so I don't really get that criticism of Bazaar either. If anything, Bazaar access could be further enhanced by having a direct connection off of the highway.

I like the idea of having Bazaar connected to an offramp or something. I'm not a huge fan of the way it currently looks like, though. It's obvious that something used to occupy the other half of the building, and instead of doing something with what used to be there, it's entirety was removed and nothing replaced it, leaving a weird void.
I also don't live in the UK, so I don't know what you're talking about here, so if it works there, then I guess it's fine. V6 is probably meant to be a mixture of a ton of urban environments across other countries, so I guess this is fine if it works in real-life, even if I've never seen something like this before.

And basically every petrol/gas station I've been to in and around London, including motorway/highway services, are all one-way systems regardless of their size, so I don't get that either.

To me it's weird because each gas station is double-sided, but you can't exit through both sides. How am I meant to use the other side? You want me to pull into the side with my gas cap facing the opposite way? Or do you want me to do a U-turn after passing the right side? I think it would be a lot better if every gas station could be entered from both sides. It would make a lot more sense that way.

Nonetheless, of course there are legitimate improvements or considerations to be had elsewhere many of which you have captured, but those three above I really don't really understand what the associated negative impacts of them are.

That's understandable. I'm not sure if anyone else would agree with me on the topic of INFRA's inspiration to V6, but I felt that if I was going to make a post about feedback, I wouldn't hold back any of my opinions.

I don't think its fair at all to say that peeps "ripped" off INFRA, she is just paying an homage to a game that she loves.

I can understand that. I also didn't say that peeps "ripped" off anything. I never said that word, and it makes it seem like I'm lambasting peeps for robbing things from other games, while I know full and well that permission was granted by Loiste Interactive in the first place. Sure, this is pedantic, since I said "taking" instead, but if I had used "ripped", it would've seemed like I was attacking her for just paying homage to another game. I just think the homage did a little too much in some places, and I felt like it messed with the identity of Paralake City.

 

[Fredy]

So you just copy pasted what you already wrote in the other thread to farm more karma? Come on man...

Either way, if you really think that V6 using INFRA textures is any serious problem for the map then you have really lost the plot. You might prefer something else (lower quality real world textures), but we would still be using other people's textures (just worse ones).
Please don't generalize things like this that are clearly personal preference.

I am always happy for taking criticism but this does not seem like a well-intentioned attempt at providing feedback at all.

 

[Sorle]

So you just copy pasted what you already wrote in the other thread to farm more karma? Come on man...

Either way, if you really think that V6 using INFRA textures is any serious problem for the map then you have really lost the plot. You might prefer something else (lower quality real world textures), but we would still be using other people's textures (just worse ones).
Please don't generalize things like this that are clearly personal preference.

I am always happy for taking criticism but this does not seem like a well-intentioned attempt at providing feedback at all.

he wrote out an entire essay providing genuine feedback and even said he applauds the effort put into the map but it's not well-intentioned because you disagree with one point respect bro

 

[Fredy]

it's not well-intentioned because you disagree with one point respect bro

It's not well intentioned because he posted the same post from the other thread. Clearly the intention is to farm karma and attention, not to provide feedback.

 

[Sorle]

It's not well intentioned because he posted the same post from the other thread. Clearly the intention is to farm karma and attention, not to provide feedback.

didn't peeps directly say that the other thread was not the place for it and a separate place is the correct place for it? these two things cannot coexist

 

[Fredy]

Both of these things can be true at the same time (it was the wrong place to post about it, but it was not removed, was it?). Anyways, sorry for spamming this thread.

 

[Foga]

Everything in this thread is personal preference. I think it's pretty clear he doesn't care that someone else's textures were used, just that he feels they don't fit and the lore stuff is not immersive. And if you ignore the INFRA stuff, I think its well intentioned feedback

 

[Tilin]

- Bazaar's current iteration looks like a slapdash attempt to fix what wasn't broken.

Bazaar was broken. Constant shootouts, constant hotspot for people to hunker down whilst warranted. I am not saying the current one is perfect, but it has mitigated the issues we've had. I don't think many people remember bazaar was actually pretty dead on v5 for a good while as well. On and off periods of people activity.

I personally think the biggest reason was removing the distance from which you can sell items from.

- Suburbs is mostly an improvement if you ignore the fact that it's basically on an island separated from the rest of the map. It's probably the 2nd most empty part of the map, with the 1st being the forest.

Is everyone forgetting how dead V5 subs was if it wasn't for the actual storage being there? Like people barely based there if ever. At most 1 of the small subs houses. Now you typically have 2 - being a staff member really makes you realize that people are around you all the time, you just don't realize it.

- The wood cabins are largely okay, but I really don't like the one next to Lakeview. This is nearly impossible to raid if PD are on, and if you are not a large group. Cool idea though.

Could do with a second exit ngl. Unless you like swimming for your life, it can be very difficult.

- Running away from the police using vehicles got harder in this version of the map, for better and for worse. I wish we had more ways to outsmart Police than to just do loops on the highway and go on the wrong side of the road. Unfortunately this means I'm agreeing with one of Malek's suggestions, xP. Something like removing the bollards from the bridge between Lakeview and Suburbs would be great.

Sorry what. The forest now has so many levels you can escape on. The city is no longer basically 1 exit. I think you're forgetting how even more limiting v5 was in terms of escaping cops?

- Typically, gas stations only have one-way exits when it's a high-volume gas station, one with hundreds of pumps like a Costco or Sam's Club gas station. Gas stations with single pumps never have one-way exits, because they're supposed to be entered from both sides so people can access both pumps no matter where they come from.

This is pretty standard in many European countries that they're always one-way. Not a single one in Slovenia that can be entered from both sides.

---

Bottom line is that not everyone will like every aspect of the map. I really wish we'd have breakdown zones on the highway, so you can pull people over and know they're running from you before they pull a nasty move also speed enforcement.

I also wish the storage wasn't in the city, because it gives access to guns way too quickly after respawning.

Another thing is that the PD design could be better to avoid people from jail cells yelling "I have 10 toes guys"

Let's not forget the map was unplayable for some this month because the flags were too disturbing for them.

I do believe there could be a lot of improvement done, but that's always the case. There is no perfection, because at the end of the day making a map is art. And art is never finished. But that's what v7 is for - to continue development on the map from everything that needs to be improved.

 

[Acerius]

To me it's weird because each gas station is double-sided, but you can't exit through both sides. How am I meant to use the other side? You want me to pull into the side with my gas cap facing the opposite way? Or do you want me to do a U-turn after passing the right side? I think it would be a lot better if every gas station could be entered from both sides. It would make a lot more sense that way.

Not every car has its gas cap on the same side, and this is true in real life also. If your side is taken up, you just queue until it becomes available. If you take a look at cars in-game you'll see they very much vary in terms of the side in which the gas cap appears. In fact, sweaters with their Mini Coopers are the real winners because it has a gas cap on both sides.

Realism aside, from a gameplay perspective where it is done based on range, it enables traffic control measures whilst also boosting the capacity of the gas stations. It might be more convenient to have them be accessible both ways, sure, but I don't think it makes it significantly better or makes more sense.

 

[Sorle]

Real shit guys on the topic of the gas stations can we fix only one car showing up at each pump because I've genuinely had to go to different gas stations because people block all the pumps with their shitwagons

 

[Clarky]

Both of these things can be true at the same time (it was the wrong place to post about it, but it was not removed, was it?). Anyways, sorry for spamming this thread.

We'd all be getting nit picky about what is and isn't allowed on a thread, I think the message was pretty clear from the get-go in general that it is map related so at the very least the community has addressed it in some way and your decisions to take upon it or not. I can see good coming from such discussions like this thread and the V5 map rotation suggestion, let's just not get the main purpose here twisted it'll only create hostility when it's just fondness that many people have held are speaking about and how they want to see Paralake city keep its unique charm whilst becoming a better map simultaneously.

 

[phoondos]

(it was the wrong place to post about it, but it was not removed, was it?)

If more people wanted to talk about it, like you and other staff members are doing, then they now have a place to do so in this thread. I was expecting that thread to close soon after what I posted, considering peeps brought attention to the fact that it was apparently not supposed to be in that thread.

Either way, if you really think that V6 using INFRA textures is any serious problem for the map then you have really lost the plot.

Note that the "serious problem" stems from the concepts and ideas taken from the STORY, not the models and textures. The only part of my criticism that specifically talks about the textures and models specifically would be the part I talked about The Bunker and it's similarities to a building in INFRA, as well as when I mentioned the similarities between the papers in the game and easter-egg respectively.

Please don't generalize things like this that are clearly personal preference.

I went in-depth into what exactly I didn't like about the usage of INFRA's assets. If this is still generalizing things to you, then there's not much more I can do to help you understand what I'm trying to say with this segment of the post.

I understand that Garry's Mod is THE game where textures and models are ripped from other games to either port or augment in some new form.

I clearly acknowledged that this exact thing (textures/models used from other properties) is commonplace in Garry's Mod. I don't have a problem with the textures being used at all. I just don't think they fit, and I don't like the extent to which homage was paid. It seems like you and the other staff members have missed my point regarding the usage of INFRA's assets.

Clearly the intention is to farm karma and attention, not to provide feedback.

I really don't care about attention or karma. It's okay if you think that's what I'm doing, but I have no reason to do any attention seeking at all. I'm not some famous person that needs to be acknowledged. I'm a regular person trying to provide my criticisms and complements in regards to the server's map, whether you engage with my criticism as just that or not. I also don't appreciate you implying that I'm being disingenuous by making this thread. I've made it clear that I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers in this thread and the shoutbox.

 

[phoondos]

Sorry what. The forest now has so many levels you can escape on. The city is no longer basically 1 exit. I think you're forgetting how even more limiting v5 was in terms of escaping cops?

If I drive in the forest on 200ms ping it's a death sentence. I should've clarified that I wasn't mentioning the forest in regards to this aspect of gameplay because of this. Sorry. When I try to escape cops, it mostly becomes a game of doing loops around the highway or buildings in the city before getting on the highway.

Another thing is that the PD design could be better to avoid people from jail cells yelling "I have 10 toes guys"

I didn't even know this was possible. GG

Bazaar was broken. Constant shootouts, constant hotspot for people to hunker down whilst warranted.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the V5 or V6 version here. If you're referring to the V5 version, then yeah, you're totally right. But with the V6 version, I feel like something else could've been done to keep that 2nd floor instead of just removing it outright. It looks jarring now.

Could do with a second exit ngl. Unless you like swimming for your life, it can be very difficult.

Agreed.

It might be more convenient to have them be accessible both ways, sure, but I don't think it makes it significantly better or makes more sense.

It would make the gas stations flow better in my opinion. I think it looks weird to have one-way exits when the pumps are double-sided. If they were single-sided, it would make more sense to me.

 

[Fredy]

The identity of Paralake City has been corrupted by the lore of INFRA, and it results in a map that feels weird to inhabit when keeping these concepts

I am sorry phondoos, this is legit an insane level statement. You are lucky no one in this community has the attention span to read far enough in your post to get to it.
I cannot take you seriously at all after saying all of that and it does not even make sense in the slightest.
Would you also say that a map that uses textures from CS:S rather than the HL2 textures is being corrupted by CS:S? What if they put in easter eggs like AWPs lying around on the map or a C4 somewhere in the map? Would it make the map feel weird to inhabit?
Seriously, this is just a complete non-sense take and a very good reason you burried it in the middle of your massive post.

I'm a regular person trying to provide my criticisms and complements in regards to the server's map

Maybe provide it in a regular way then, we don't need you to write a manifesto of why you dislike V6.
And please tell me how another thread which helps exactly nothing is gonna fix anything? We are already working on V7 and we will address most of the most pressing issues? So why post the exact duplicate copy of a post that peeps, Bolli and I already read? Please explain it to me. What is the intention here?

 

[phoondos]

You are lucky no one in this community has the attention span to read far enough in your post to get to it.

that's so fire

Would you also say that a map that uses textures from CS:S rather than the HL2 textures is being corrupted by CS:S?

I never said that the map was corrupted by the assets. I said it was corrupted by the lore. There's a key difference here. While I think the usage of the textures and models of INFRA contributed to my dislike towards the homage paid in the first place, I never once said it was the key issue here. I just don't like the fact that the game influenced the creation of certain properties and aspects of the map to this extent.

In this hypothetical, it would've made more sense to ask me: "Would you also say that a map that adds bombsites from CS:S to a RP map as a homage is being corrupted by CS:S?" because this is more in line with what I was actually alluding to. There's reason to believe that both The Bunker and Foundry would not exist if INFRA didn't.

Maybe provide it in a regular way then, we don't need you to write a manifesto of why you dislike V6.

It's your prerogative to assume it's a manifesto. I'm telling you it isn't. What would you claim is a "regular way" to post this feedback?

You also don't "need" me to write anything. I can post what I want in this community so long as it follows the rules. You're lucky I'm even explaining myself, even though I've already done so within the post and other replies prior to this one.

So why post the exact duplicate copy of a post that peeps, Bolli and I already read? Please explain it to me. What is the intention here?

It's not an exact duplicate copy. I also already outlined my intention in the beginning and end of this post:

I've decided to expand upon the criticisms I posted in the V5 WEEKEND suggestion, and open a thread for others to voice their compliments and criticisms in an effort to help the developers improve V7.

This was not intended to insult anyone, but rather to offer my criticisms on the map after a long time of playing it through different iterations. The polish that I see in this current version makes me incredibly hopeful for V7, and I hope that we can have an even greater map than V6 when it comes out. The reason I made this thread in the first place was to separate it from the posts made in the V5 WEEKEND thread, so we could have a civilized discussion about the good (and bad) about this map. This way, we could help the developers improve the map for V7 and onward. Again, this thread's purpose is not to insult anyone, no matter what language I use in this main post and onward. I would've gone crazy a long time ago if I had to develop an RP map for 128 players using Hammer+, so I salute the developers for having to go through this at all.