3.4 Opinions

The HitMan said:

Cops should really stop being so trigger happy when someone doesn't comply when we have other means of detainment.

Click to expand...

Their options are to either shoot them for not complying with gunpoint, or use their other means of detainment but in the time it takes to pull out such means they get gunned down by the person not complying with gunpoint. I know which option I'm choosing.

Crunchie said:

Their options are to either shoot them for not complying with gunpoint, or use their other means of detainment but in the time it takes to pull out such means they get gunned down by the person not complying with gunpoint. I know which option I'm choosing.

Click to expand...

That’s a false dilemma.

It’s not logical to act like there are not a ton more variables than to just act like it’s black and white “gun or taser”

If an officer is by himself and feels his life is at risk he can and should give chase without using his firearm. KEEP it in hand, sure, but raising it at someone who is unarmed and not wanted for a violent crime is just ridiculously trigger happy. Eventually backup should arrive enabling the officer to be safe to use appropriate non lethal force to tase the suspect without fear of being quick drawn on as there probably is a colleague now ready with Lethal.

MalekIsWeird said:

And if an officer is not low rank and used excessive force without trolling?

Click to expand...

Blatantly trolling was a bit far, so yes, there are many instances where excessive force results in server punishment. Usually when a cop kills someone they aren't supposed to

Collier said:

Blatantly trolling was a bit far, so yes, there are many instances where excessive force results in server punishment. Usually when a cop kills someone they aren't supposed to

Click to expand...

And if the officer gunpoints people he legally should not have, does that also get punished rule wise?

Logically speaking Unlawful Detainment -> Criminal Conduct -> Gross misconduct.

MalekIsWeird said:

And if the officer gunpoints people he legally should not have, does that also get punished rule wise?

Logically speaking Unlawful Detainment -> Criminal Conduct -> Gross misconduct.

Click to expand...

The 3 things you just listed are misconduct classifications, not server rule breaks, so you’ve answered your own question.

MalekIsWeird said:

And if the officer gunpoints people he legally should not have, does that also get punished rule wise?

Logically speaking Unlawful Detainment -> Criminal Conduct -> Gross misconduct.

Click to expand...

Probably not, because gunpointing someone you shouldn't doesn't mean they are being detained illegally. The method of detainment has no impact on the legality of it. If a gun is drawn instead of a taser, or a baton, that is a use of force issue, which is not a law, so it is not a crime to break it (and by extension, not against the rules). This would only rarely be dealt with by staff beyond the cop being advised (if anything at all)

EDIT:
I would also like to add that not all of our staff members are clued in enough into the PD to make that determination accurately, and even those that are generally aren't in the positions where they are able to make that judgement on their own

Collier said:

Probably not, because gunpointing someone you shouldn't doesn't mean they are being detained illegally. The method of detainment has no impact on the legality of it. If a gun is drawn instead of a taser, or a baton, that is a use of force issue, which is not a law, so it is not a crime to break it (and by extension, not against the rules). This would only rarely be dealt with by staff beyond the cop being advised (if anything at all)

EDIT:
I would also like to add that not all of our staff members are clued in enough into the PD to make that determination accurately, and even those that are generally aren't in the positions where they are able to make that judgement on their own

Click to expand...

Would anyone actually take a IA from excessive force seriously given they like punch someone once and get gunpointed

bigsmat said:

Would anyone actually take a IA from excessive force seriously given they like punch someone once and get gunpointed

Click to expand...

Probably, yes. It is incredibly rare that this is ever reported through IA though. There was something of a 'landmark case' on this subject not too long ago that was voted on in the Complaint Committee. Unfortunately, as this information is not public, nobody really heard about it, but both @Acerius and myself were quite influential in the vote to condemn gunpointing people where it would be excessive to do so.

For clarity, the reason I namedropped Acerius is because he is the Head of Internal Affairs. We both agree on this issue, particularly because gunpointing somebody when you aren't supposed to could produce weapons or other equipped items that a cop wouldn't normally have found if they hadn't used their weapons when they weren't supposed to

Collier said:

Probably not, because gunpointing someone you shouldn't doesn't mean they are being detained illegally. The method of detainment has no impact on the legality of it.

Click to expand...

I’m not clear on what this means.

please clarify because maybe I’m misunderstanding but I feel like if a civilian is gunpointed without probable cause then that has to be unlawful detainment.

When a person gunpoints a person and or orders surrender that is pursuing custody, that is a means of confinement as the person receiving these directions is being ordered against their will, which is by definition custody and by extension also defined as detainment.

Let alone the fact other laws apply such as 10.1 Distress.

MalekIsWeird said:

I’m not clear on what this means.

please clarify because maybe I’m misunderstanding but I feel like if a civilian is gunpointed without probable cause then that has to be unlawful detainment.

When a person gunpoints a person and or orders surrender that is pursuing custody, that is a means of confinement as the person receiving these directions is being ordered against their will, which is by definition custody and by extension also defined as detainment.

Let alone the fact other laws apply such as 10.1 Distress.

Click to expand...

Generally speaking, when a cop pulls a gun on you, there is a reason for you to be detained. Sometimes it just doesn't rise to the level of drawing a gun, but that doesn't make the detainment illegal

Collier said:

Generally speaking, when a cop pulls a gun on you, there is a reason for you to be detained. Sometimes it just doesn't rise to the level of drawing a gun, but that doesn't make the detainment illegal

Click to expand...

yes that I agree but my question earlier was about if the officer does not have reasonable articulable probable cause, we can both say that is definitely unlawful detainment and unjustifiable force right?

MalekIsWeird said:

yes that I agree but my question earlier was about if the officer does not have reasonable articulable probable cause, we can both say that is definitely unlawful detainment and unjustifiable force right?

Click to expand...

I mean, maybe? It's hard to imagine a situation where a cop will just gunpoint a random civilian for no reason at all without minging. If a cop is going around gunpointing people with no rhyme or reason we could probably deal with that as staff members. On a personal note, I think it's usually very useful for a staff member to at least ask a cop why they have done something, even if the matter ends up being referred to IA.

It's not helpful for a staff member to handwave a report on a cop saying "This is an IA issue" when 9/10 the person making the report isn't actually clued into why a cop has done something. I've had many situations be resolved by just talking to the cop and relaying that information to the person reporting it. Often all it takes to satisfy them is a simple explanation

kormoran said:

i dont get why you cant just run from the police on foot and disobey their commands if you are under gunpoint while not being an active threat to life at all
like if you want to turn your jay walking ticket into a jail sentence go ahead and do it why do u have to be banned for it? its a players choice and staff shouldnt be involved unless they decide to go into a car chase cuz they r about to get a speeding ticket or shoot at cops cuz they suspect they r wanted (every zerg)

Click to expand...

> Be cop
> Crim flees
> Crim runs over civ, dies, jail sentence 7y+
> Get out of car to apprehend crim
> Crim runs me over, ignoring gp
> IA written warning for drawing on a non violent offender

No thank you.

Collier said:

This is one of the better replies in this thread and it is completely slept on. If I accidentally stumble on your drugs just going about my day, I shouldn't have to eat shit for it and stare at a black screen.

If every player player stopped to consider if what they are doing is reasonable and fun/fair for the person they are engaging with, there would be fewer punishments.

Click to expand...