11.11, 11.5 "Property" Revision and clarification

[HuskyD0G]

With the current laws of 11.5 and 11.11, vehicles are being interpreted as properties within the 11.5 law. I and others have noticed multiple people being arrested for car thefts for 11.11 if they are armed, which leads to multiple shootouts. Cars are property, however within law 11.5 is meant to be specifically for Homes, Apartments, and Privately owned buildings like bank.

11.5 Burglary​

Any person who enters a property or any part of a property with the intention to commit theft, cause unlawful damage or to inflict unlawful serious injury.

As you can see the law states property, which vehicles are property. Instead of outlining it like this below.

11.5 Burglary Revised​

Any person who enters a home, apartment, or otherwise privately owned building with the intention to commit theft, cause unlawful damage or to inflict unlawful serious injury.

Multiple officers and supervisors have interpreted this as if you are caught stealing a vehicle while armed, you may be charged with 11.11, which is a 9-year sentence and causes unnecessary shootouts. This is a serious problem as it overlaps 11.6 which states that any possession, which in this case vehicles should be counted as a possession since this is a gmod server, not real life. If this law continues to be written this way, we will continue to see multiple shootouts over people just stealing vehicles. It's already happened multiple times already.

 

[northnortheast]

Property is the area in or around the building itself as defined by the deed held by the banks of Paralake City

Vehicles are not buildings (at least all those available in PERP) ∴ Vehicles are not properties

However, if a vehicle is parked on any property, public or private, such as the lawn of a Suburbs House or the Roadcrew Station, then technically you are entering that property with intention to commit theft and thus liable to those burglary offenses.

The issue with rewording the law to only include Private Property is that it then does not cover those who enter the Police Department, City Hall, Bank, et cetera with malicious intent.

I would much rather see a comprehensive map of the areas that are defined as Private Property, Public Property, Public Areas, and Publicly Restricted Areas as in Section 1, as it is very ambiguous right now and open to interpretation which is not ideal.

 

[Jenga]

I dont see a problem understanding this

 

[Niko]

The use of the term Property is explained in the Terminology of the Paralake Penal Code, meaning it is not open to any other interpretation. Vehicles are not included in the use of said terminology.
There is no need to change the wording of the law because of this, and it is honestly very simple to understand. If you face any cases with officers arresting people for 11.11 because they had a weapon on their person while they were attempting to steal a vehicle, request a supervisor or make an IA complaint on the officer.

 

[nutrient10]

I appreciate people can interpret the word 'property' differently and in most legal jurisdictions in the world, a vehicle would be a property/premises, but as @northnortheast and @Niko have already touched on, 'property' has a very specific definition for the purposes of the Paralake Penal Code, found in Section 1, and is different to the definition for 'possession' which you can see below or here: https://paralake.city/laws#legislation-1.

If this really is becoming a serious issue it may not be a bad idea to clarify it even further but it seems fine to me for the time being and it would be better to just educate other officers and give them some feedback if you see anyone doing this, or use the Internal Affairs system where necessary and investigators can recommend corrective action rather than infractions to help officers learn from their mistakes without punishing them and without anything going on their record.

 

[HuskyD0G]

I appreciate people can interpret the word 'property' differently and in most legal jurisdictions in the world, a vehicle would be a property/premises, but as @northnortheast and @Niko have already touched on, 'property' has a very specific definition for the purposes of the Paralake Penal Code, found in Section 1, and is different to the definition for 'possession' which you can see below or here: https://paralake.city/laws#legislation-1.

If this really is becoming a serious issue it may not be a bad idea to clarify it even further but it seems fine to me for the time being and it would be better to just educate other officers and give them some feedback if you see anyone doing this, or use the Internal Affairs system where necessary and investigators can recommend corrective action rather than infractions to help officers learn from their mistakes without punishing them and without anything going on their record.

It has become an issue, because other officers (including SGT.'s) have been arresting people for this. The other issue is, that IRL, your vehicle is specified as property at least in the USA it is idk about the EU. So it wouldn't hurt to just change a couple of words or give examples. I've never arrested anyone personally for this because It's stupid and I knew what the law meant. But I have seen others argue that cars are property and its kinda understandable why they would be confused.

 

[ALOO89]

so if i steal car at projex should i get 11.5 or 5.3 ?

 

[nutrient10]

so if i steal car at projex should i get 11.5 or 5.3 ?

If all you do is steal a car and there are no other offences/aggravating factors (such as failing to stop for police and reckless driving or even robbery by using force or the fear of force against someone in order to steal it) then it would be max 3 years 3k for 11.6

 

[HuskyD0G]

I dont see a problem understanding this

I don't either but apparently everyone has this issue

 

[Efan]

I don't either but apparently everyone has this issue

It’s not an issue with the law, rather an issue with officers not understanding the law. Make IA complaints on officers you see doing this and that should resolve it.

 

[HuskyD0G]

It’s not an issue with the law, rather an issue with officers not understanding the law. Make IA complaints on officers you see doing this and that should resolve it.

Will do

 

[AwesomeGamersHQ]

I have sent out a message to all officers on PLPD.online which clarifies that officers should not be charging people who steal vehicles under law 11.5 Burglary or 11.11 Aggravated Burglary, but under law 11.6 Theft:

Spoiler: Message excerpt

Burglary Law - There have been reports that officers have been charging people who have stolen cars with law 11.5 Burglary or 11.11 Aggravated Burglary under the belief that "property" includes vehicles. The definition of "property" is clearly defined in the Paralake Penal Code as "the area in or around the building itself as defined by the deed held by the banks of Paralake City". A vehicle does not fit this definition. If someone does not break into a building in order to steal a vehicle, they should charged with law 11.6 Theft, along with any other law violations they might have committed.

Please continue to make IA complaints on officers who charge people incorrectly.

 

[northnortheast]

@AwesomeGamersHQ Would you and the Paralake City Managers design a map of areas considered 'Public Property' and 'Private Property', or a list of properties and a description of their boundaries?

I have witnessed areas such as the Office fire escape, Hungries Schwein balcony, and Moron Shipping Co parking lot be described as both part of a 'property' and not in a property by supervisors, so having a clear and unambiguous definitive ruling on where the property line is would help a lot.

 

[Hayden]

@AwesomeGamersHQ Would you and the Paralake City Managers design a map of areas considered 'Public Property' and 'Private Property', or a list of properties and a description of their boundaries?

I have witnessed areas such as the Office fire escape, Hungries Schwein balcony, and Moron Shipping Co parking lot be described as both part of a 'property' and not in a property by supervisors, so having a clear and unambiguous definitive ruling on where the property line is would help a lot.

 

[Hayden]

@AwesomeGamersHQ Would you and the Paralake City Managers design a map of areas considered 'Public Property' and 'Private Property', or a list of properties and a description of their boundaries?

I have witnessed areas such as the Office fire escape, Hungries Schwein balcony, and Moron Shipping Co parking lot be described as both part of a 'property' and not in a property by supervisors, so having a clear and unambiguous definitive ruling on where the property line is would help a lot.

If anyone is good with graphic design/photoshop, we are looking for someone to make some cool looking diagrams to show the property deed/line for every single property on the map. If you are, then please drop me a PM. We want them to look a little bit like this, but ensure they are clear: