Reducing assisting wait time. [5.3]

[iQuinten]

What rule do you wish to Edit/Add: [5.3]
If a civilian has died whilst raiding a property, they must wait 30 minutes after they have re-spawned before attempting to raid, or assist others in raiding that property.

Your version of the rule (Debatable):
If a civilian has died whilst raiding a property, they must wait 10 (or a different reduced time) minutes after they have re-spawned before attempting to raid, or assist others in raiding that property.

Why do you believe this rule should be Added/Edited:
As of now you're unable to flank after you died as a civilian, due to them having to wait 30 minutes after re-spawning they pretty much won't be able to involve them self within the situation. Government officials don't have to wait this time, they can just keep running in after there NLR timer expires (5 minutes), if they get called back. I see this as a massive gap that should be changed. From what I have been told, this rule got made because of the quote;"massive amounts of rimlickers". In my perspective I have seen this "problem" being reduced to a minimum level, with multiple organisations now that are balancing out the game.

As it was a staff made decision from what I have been told, the community didn't had a word in it, so I would like it to have it as an open discussion for the entire community to cast there "vote" within the current rule and hopefully balancing the rule more for both sides.

By changing the time to 10 (or a more balanced time) minutes, you still give the police an advantage, without making it to one-sided, hopefully we will see some decent arguments.

 

[R-Flex]

This is greatly needed. Both cops and defenders can just return to their properties after nlr which gives raiders a really hard time to have to deal with cops then defenders then manage the drugs and guns. Any people wanting to flank after their death would have to use more guns from their inventory so why not change the rule

 

[Smeris]

this should be made clear enough though, when do the 10 minutes start? when you fully die? During NLR, after the NLR timer? i'd personally say instantly after NLR, but i'd much rather see the NLR timer gone and just extending the death timer to 8 minutes or something

 

[Fintuss]

defenders and cops can return after nlr timer passes but raiders cant, this is a very one sided rule and just makes raiding harder which will make players more scared to raid

definetely needs some rework

 

[ΙεΙίος1]

When you are raiding, shouldn't your aim be to do a quick in quick out? The 10 minutes a cop needs to wait before returning after death and the raiders not being able to help again in the raid after death is in my opinion balanced. The raiders are able to flee after killing a few officers before they can respond again just fine.
If you make the time the raiders need to wait "flank-able" xd then in most cases it will just unnecessarily make the situation 10 times more frustrating for the officers due to the flankers.

tl;dr imo it's not necessary as I feel it's already balanced.
I tried to write the first paragraph while imagining myself raiding and the second being a cop. Could have written more for the latter but cba.

 

[R-Flex]

When you are raiding, shouldn't your aim be to do a quick in quick out? The 10 minutes a cop needs to wait before returning after death and the raiders not being able to help again in the raid after death is in my opinion balanced. The raiders are able to flee after killing a few officers before they can respond again just fine.
If you make the time the raiders need to wait "flank-able" xd then in most cases it will just unnecessarily make the situation 10 times more frustrating for the officers due to the flankers.

tl;dr imo it's not necessary as I feel it's already balanced.
I tried to write the first paragraph while imagining myself raiding and the second being a cop. Could have written more for the latter but cba.

Sometimes its not us wanting to camp the property. In big raids where defenders are 8+ people its not that easy to kill them all and leave in 10 minutes. Not only do you have to make your way inside bases with complicated defences killing all the defenders but you also have to deal with the cops pushing inside as well as collecting all the loot from the raid. All this can not be done in 10 minutes.

 

[iQuinten]

Poll:
I've noticed that especially people from the PD that I've never seen play criminals before are disliking the discussion for this rule. I'd recommend these people to actually try raiding a big property for once with a decent group of people with decent guns. Its almost impossible to do this within 10 min.

Flankers:
Stating that you dislike flankers is in my perspective a bad argument. We criminals get flanked all the times by the LEO's and TFU's. So why should you guys be able to come back every time in your gorilla warfare and we shouldn't? And if criminal flankers come back, they risk losing there guns. The PD only risks to get a black screen in worst case scenario.

 

[Smily]

Flankers:
Stating that you dislike flankers is in my perspective a bad argument. We criminals get flanked all the times by the LEO's and TFU's. So why should you guys be able to come back every time in your gorilla warfare and we shouldn't? And if criminal flankers come back, they risk losing there guns. The PD only risks to get a black screen in worst case scenario

Because the PD is suppost to be more powerful, organized and rapid than criminals, it's litterly their job. It only makes sense that they would have an advantage like being able to return quicker. Criminals get other advantages that you use.

 

[R-Flex]

Because the PD is suppost to be more powerful, organized and rapid than criminals, it's litterly their job.

Yes , in real life. In game though every single day people are growing drugs and killing people.If the owners wanted police to be the most powerful organization they would make it.

 

[Trebblebob]

Criminals get other advantages that you use.

Rather than refer to them, can you name what they are?

You have easy access to: communication and organisation, an arsenal of weapons that you don't lose when you die, armour and are about to get a semi-automatic 7.62x51 rifle. What else could you possibly need? You get the advantage of being able to come back in constant hordes that can become difficult to escape from.

 

[Smily]

Rather than refer to them, can you name what they are?

* the ability to disappear into a crowd
* the ability to go hide anywhere where you have friends
* insanely fast cars
* receive any equipment your heart desires except for armour at the cost of time
* the ability to make codes with your friends that noone else knows
* the ability to rapidly communicate with people without people around you knowing what you say (org chat)
* never having to abide by policies
You have more advantages than you seem to realize. Being criminal means you accept the high risk for the high reward.

QUOTE="Qyndryx, post: 208786, member: 5996"]You have easy access to: communication and organisation, an arsenal of weapons that you don't lose when you die, armour and are about to get a semi-automatic 7.62x51 rifle. What else could you possibly need? You get the advantage of being able to come back in constant hordes that can become difficult to escape from.[/QUOTE]
I don't know why everyone is getting upset about new weapons for the police since you guys have access to all of those as well. We are simply outgunned, all of our vehicles are destroyable and its too easy most of the time to adapt to what the police do. It's a serious role play server, and the police should use everything that they can including the shorter time span to return.

Yes , in real life. In game though every single day people are growing drugs and killing people.If the owners wanted police to be the most powerful organization they would make it.

If power isn't an issue why do you need this suggestion to be added? Police are adapting since they realize that 9/10 times that they are outgunned they adopt new tactics which could include guerrilla tactics and it shows that they are trying to win with their brains not just the amount of bullets (this isn't always the case but it's a trend I see happening more and more)

Criminal is worthwhile short and long term and it can be relatively easy to gain a lot and fast. But I also believe that police is worthwhile but people seem to be abandoning that more and more with each change to nerf them or buff the criminals.

 

[Trebblebob]

* the ability to disappear into a crowd

Rarely works, might be able to disguise as a minge grabber though.

* the ability to go hide anywhere where you have friends

That doesn't really help during a raid, does it?

* insanely fast cars

But with the map the size of a toenail and good co-ordination, you can easily catch up and find us.

* receive any equipment your heart desires except for armour at the cost of time

Our only benefit is grenades, more ammo and more bandages/stims.

* the ability to make codes with your friends that noone else knows

Even then, it is not hard to deduct what they are referring to and you can be ready for whatever is going to happen. As 95% of the times it happens, it is really fucking obvious, when someone screeches a random word, that you (the polis) are about to be shot up.

* the ability to rapidly communicate with people without people around you knowing what you say (org chat)

I can agree with this and believe that organisation chat should be a function of the phone (integrated with TeamSpeak).

* never having to abide by policies

I've never been Tactical Firearms Unit so I can't see the policies that you need to follow.

 

[Mage]

We are simply outgunned

lol

and what if in a few weeks you still get outgunned even with better equipment? What's next?

But let's face the truth, I went on within the past week to give raiding a shot, and on all four occasions even with 5 people we got stomped by the police every time despite us having grenades and rifles because we were simply outnumbered by the police force. It wasn't even fun, that's the worst part, it's ridiculous how strong the police force is with the equipment directly available to them. At this point I'm not surprised people powergrow all the time. There is hardly no motive to raid as the chances of winning nowadays are significantly lower than they were even a year ago, and similarly the people who are growing are far less likely to get raided. I'm not saying you should be able to solo the whole police force, I'm all for having a police force stronger than the average criminal group, but when the police force is balanced to deal with 20+ people then that is just a massive fuck you to the people who want to just enjoy the server with a small group of players.

On topic though which monkey thought this rule would be a good idea? Yet again like I said above things are being restricted based on the extreme rather than focus on the smaller groups of players. Sure it's not fun for a group of 15 people to constantly have people coming back after they die, but what if it's 3-4 guys just wanting to raid for a bit of fun?

fun > realism

right now that's not the case

 

[Smily]

I'm going to respond to these in order. /on phone so that's why

Rarely works, might be able to disguise as a minge grabber though.


That doesn't really help during a raid, does it?


But with the map the size of a toenail and good co-ordination, you can easily catch up and find us.


Our only benefit is grenades, more ammo and more bandages/stims.


Even then, it is not hard to deduct what they are referring to and you can be ready for whatever is going to happen. As 95% of the times it happens, it is really fucking obvious, when someone screeches a random word, that you (the polis) are about to be shot up.


I can agree with this and believe that organisation chat should be a function of the phone (integrated with TeamSpeak).


I've never been Tactical Firearms Unit so I have never had the chance to see the policies that you need to follow.

* a guy wanted for murderer disappearing into a crowd of blue people works more often than you think, police stand out like a sore thumb.

* No but if you leave said raid and hide in an apartment of your friend there are very limited measures to be taken from a police perspective.

*I take apart in a considerable amount of car chases and 50-60% (estimate) end in the car disappearing into the forest or the owner abandoning it somewhere to get into someone else's car.

* not mentioning the extreme amount of high caliber weapons you can take, concealable weapons, attachments, scopes. The PD doesn't get access to nearly as much.

* This one is more on a minimal level I agree but signaling is a big part of a TFOs day to day life it can be so much as a cough or a wave. I know this because I do this very frequently both off and on duty.

* N/A

* Not just the TFO policies but use of force, ethics etc.

I'm just trying to make sure the PD gets represented in a fair way and that both sides of the argument get a say

 

[Deleted member 1235]

30 Minutes is perfectly adequate.

Get the raid right the first time and you won't have to worry about NLR.

10 Minutes after raiders are killed, many defenders are still consolidating their positions and most likely dealing with the police. Just for them to get hit again by the same raiders is a never ending circle.

Someone needs to be at a disadvantage here, and it should be the raiders, risking their ammo and life to conduct the raid. If you balls it up and die then tough shit.

 

[R-Flex]

* the ability to disappear into a crowd
* the ability to go hide anywhere where you have friends
* insanely fast cars
* receive any equipment your heart desires except for armour at the cost of time
* the ability to make codes with your friends that noone else knows
* the ability to rapidly communicate with people without people around you knowing what you say (org chat)
* never having to abide by policies
You have more advantages than you seem to realize. Being criminal means you accept the high risk for the high reward.

Do you really believe people raid for profit? Have you ever done a raid before? No one goes and raids to get profit, they do it to have fun and, if people didnt go out raiding all you would be doing is handing out traffic tickets.

We PAY for our equipment so yes we get whatever we want

 

[Trebblebob]

* a guy wanted for murderer disappearing into a crowd of blue people works more often than you think, police stand out like a sore thumb.

Never seen this happen once before. We always dip into another property/secluded location if possible, most of the time we get caught by the Police.

* No but if you leave said raid and hide in an apartment of your friend there are very limited measures to be taken from a police perspective.

That's only if you can manage to get out of the complex or location you are raiding. Hiding in another apartment while you are raiding is possible but chances are you'll still get caught.

*I take apart in a considerable amount of car chases and 50-60% (estimate) end in the car disappearing into the forest or the owner abandoning it somewhere to get into someone else's car.

Though it can work, you still need to be very fast and still make it away alive. Out of the 6 times I can sort of remember pulling this tactic and have been caught around 4 of them.

* not mentioning the extreme amount of high caliber weapons you can take, concealable weapons, attachments, scopes. The PD doesn't get access to nearly as much.

Yet these are ludicrously expensive.

* This one is more on a minimal level I agree but signaling is a big part of a TFOs day to day life it can be so much as a cough or a wave. I know this because I do this very frequently both off and on duty.

Never really had a problem noticing this shit when I was an officer, most of the time when I was killed due to signalling was when it was impossible for me to see it. I suppose this just varies from person to person.

* Not just the TFO policies but use of force, ethics etc.

I really don't see the problem with this: *You see a guy with a gun* *Spray the shit out of him* Simple. This is pretty much what happens in all of the raids I see.

 

[Bnjemann]

* not mentioning the extreme amount of high caliber weapons you can take, concealable weapons, attachments, scopes. The PD doesn't get access to nearly as much.

TFU Arsenal:
-Remington M24 with Nightforce scope and suppressor
-M4A1 with a Holo sight and compensator
-Benelli M3 with a reflex sight
-M16A4 with a compensator and an electronic sight
-MP5A4 with a suppressor, Red dot sight, and crane stock
-G36c with a compensator and an electronic sight
-Scar L with a compensator and electronic sight
- Famas with a compensator and an electronic sight
- A large selection of handguns
- Additional marksmanship
- Flashbangs
- C2 charges
- Nightstick
- Legal exemption from section 7 of the Paralake Penal code
- An armoured van
- Full body armour halfing the damage of any shot they take
- Seamless communication between collegues without having a phone obstructing your view
- medics who can revive you if you are rendered unconcious
- 5 bandages to patch yourself up with
- Not having to pay a single penny for any of these
- 7-15 other officers backing you up

Sure, you dont have as much to choose from as criminals, but you get more or less the best raiding weapons, whilst the weapons you dont get are mostly pointless Filler guns, Substitutions and weapons that couldnt ethically be used by a police department.

And the weapons that shred cops are actually harder to come by than you think, people rarely sell the top tier weaponry they make, leaving you to have someone make it for you, which takes time and money. Like the scenario with the bulletproof SWAT Van and TFU officers just saying "Well get a grenade lol only 5k" But grenades are hard to come by unless you know certain people.

Overall, as far as I see it, if civillians cant come back to help there mates in a raid until 30 minutes has passed, why should cops and defenders?

* the ability to rapidly communicate with people without people around you knowing what you say (org chat)

Something Police also have.

* insanely fast cars

RTU Interceptors are faster than the majority of cars on the server.

* receive any equipment your heart desires except for armour at the cost of time

More or less the same for cops, they get more than enough that they truely need, only difference is, the only timely cost it takes is walking up to the armoury NPC

 

[Maia]

Poll:
I've noticed that especially people from the PD that I've never seen play criminals before are disliking the discussion for this rule. I'd recommend these people to actually try raiding a big property for once with a decent group of people with decent guns. Its almost impossible to do this within 10 min.

Flankers:
Stating that you dislike flankers is in my perspective a bad argument. We criminals get flanked all the times by the LEO's and TFU's. So why should you guys be able to come back every time in your gorilla warfare and we shouldn't? And if criminal flankers come back, they risk losing there guns. The PD only risks to get a black screen in worst case scenario.

I okay both as cop as criminal and I know what u mean, but your POV is also from a person that plays always as a criminal, maybe you would like to see how the officers need to conduct a raid where every person in the server is a flanker and ignores orders under gp "be it's police and they can't shoot us", crims just say "report them then" but we both know it's impossible to deal with all this.

 

[Maia]

TFU Arsenal:
-Remington M24 with Nightforce scope and suppressor
-M4A1 with a Holo sight and compensator
-Benelli M3 with a reflex sight
-M16A4 with a compensator and an electronic sight
-MP5A4 with a suppressor, Red dot sight, and crane stock
-G36c with a compensator and an electronic sight
-Scar L with a compensator and electronic sight
- Famas with a compensator and an electronic sight
- A large selection of handguns
- Additional marksmanship
- Flashbangs
- C2 charges
- Nightstick
- Legal exemption from section 7 of the Paralake Penal code
- An armoured van
- Full body armour halfing the damage of any shot they take
- Seamless communication between collegues without having a phone obstructing your view
- medics who can revive you if you are rendered unconcious
- 5 bandages to patch yourself up with
- Not having to pay a single penny for any of these
- 7-15 other officers backing you up

Sure, you dont have as much to choose from as criminals, but you get more or less the best raiding weapons, whilst the weapons you dont get are mostly pointless Filler guns, Substitutions and weapons that couldnt ethically be used by a police department.

And the weapons that shred cops are actually harder to come by than you think, people rarely sell the top tier weaponry they make, leaving you to have someone make it for you, which takes time and money. Like the scenario with the bulletproof SWAT Van and TFU officers just saying "Well get a grenade lol only 5k" But grenades are hard to come by unless you know certain people.

Overall, as far as I see it, if civillians cant come back to help there mates in a raid until 30 minutes has passed, why should cops and defenders?

The difference is that only a very limited amount of people in the plpd has access to these weapons, most of the officers just use a pistol or a remi max (when fighting 15 ppl with m4's it's not ez)