2.5 Excessive Negativity

[Draxen]

This is not a suggestion or edit, just an open discussion regarding rule 2.5 Excessive Negativity.

Hello, so to give a little backstory to this thread;

Spoiler: Backstory

Today while I was at my Bazaar shop, two individuals mugged me in the backroom of my shop. They took everything from money, to food and bandages. My friend who stood outside heard what was going on, and tried to save me. But he failed and thje two individuals shot and killed my friend.

Some how the cops came to the rescue and managed to shot both muggers unconcious and saved me from being ziptied.

The medics managed to revive the criminals, but not my friend.


So, the cops confiscated all weapons, and then took the criminals to the PD. I don't know exactly what they got charged with, but the cops dealt with them.

So to me, I wanted revenge.

When the two individuals came out of prison, I followed them to Bazaar. I sneaked up to their car and planted a carbomb.
So when the driver then came back, entered the vehicle and turned on the engine. The car exploded, killing the driver (one of the individuals who mugged me) and a bystander wich was the other guy that mugged me.

They then proceeded to report me.

I think that even though after being mugged by two individuals, who also killed my friend that tried to save me. Getting caught by the police and me getting my stuff back. And then being jailed.

I should of course be able to get revenge by killing these two individuals after being handled by the police.

I got reported for 2.5 and 3.4, I didn't recive any punishment for this situation.



So I want to discuss this, I think this should be completely fine. Revenge like this happens in real life, and from what I can remember back when I was a staff member this was totally fine.

Spoiler: Admin report

 

[rogue]

I think you are forgetting that this is a fast-paced game, that people want to jump right into.
The situation you described was structured in such a way that revenge would be taking it too far:
You got mugged - They killed your friend - The police caught them - They were jailed - You got your stuff back - All was well.
The people that mugged you are now finished. They want to move on, they want to go and do something else with their time.

By revenge killing them, you are not only taking it a step too far, you will be interrupting their play session for your own satisfaction, which is selfish and fatuous.
So revenge killing is most certainly in excess of 2.5, and beyond that.
So I think you're wrong in my opinion (maybe the punishment part was a bit harsh)

 

[Creepis]

Don't think you get any further benefit by enacting revenge on them, I usually go for the "eye for an eye" judgement when muggings occur as you further risked your life and imprisonment (DNA if that's still a thing for car bombs) by going after them after the failed mugging. They were already handled by the Police, lost their stuff and got them into jail, isn't that enough? Your friend decided to get involved on their own accord and failed in doing so, you should be lucky that they didn't execute you after your friend tried saving you but we don't have the full story.

Try mugging them back if you can but to me there is no joy in killing them with just a bomb (it doesn't even body wreck their car anymore so it's just making your money go poof for 5 minutes).

2.5 and 3.4 are fine as is, players just should be more aware if doing something is worth doing back to the person that inflicted loss to you as long as they have the information at hand (which you knew).

 

[Jenga]

Why is this a thing now, why should anyone care if someone got arrested after they killed their friend. What does that change... youre not a cop...

 

[Dom (͡o‿O͡)]

tbh i agree with u, shit like that happens irl and considersing this is meant too be rp i think ur actions was fair enough, but dont listen too me as i get banned week in week out

 

[Edisom]

I get you 100%, I had this issue myself. I do also see where they come from as well.
You weren't the one to call the cops & you had no intent of getting them arrested, yet they were. Your plan was to take there life as they took your friends, regardless of if your friend caused this by his own doing.

It is a real opinionated thing cause it comes down to if killing the person is actually worth it or not. To most they will say its not worth it cause they "have already been charged". What justice this gives you, for them killing your friend in front of you beats me, but that's why I avoid these situations when they pop up just cause sadly they can end up with you getting in trouble regardless if you feel its worth it.

Then there is also the other side of it. If everyone was justified to have a reason to kill someone over every little thing the server would be all out mayhem, but I do think there needs to be a happy medium in terms of this.

you should be lucky that they didn't execute you

He should be lucky they didn't break a rule? They wouldn't be aloud to kill him just because his friend tried to flank.

you will be interrupting their play session for your own satisfaction, which is selfish and fatuous.

IMO that is 100% there own fault for involving themselves in the mugging in the first place. That would be like raiding someone, then getting mad when they kill you for it cause you were doing other things. It was there choice from the start to do the mugging which is what started this whole situation anyways. I really don't think its fair at all to say that directed towards @Draxen . They interrupted his play session for their satisfaction... what's the difference?

Why is this a thing now, why should anyone care if someone got arrested after they killed their friend. What does that change... youre not a cop...

Hypocritical. Not everyone RP's as Off Duty Cop and is gonna be fine with the situation as long as they are charged by the Police. He didn't call the cops yet they were arrested and this resulted in him not being able to seek revenge for his friend. This is nothing new and has been happening since 2016 so I also don't know what you mean by why is this a thing now.

Overall in my personal opinion if you weren't the one who called cops to get them arrested, I think you should be able to still deal with him as you'd like. If @Draxen called the cops, then went and took revenge sure I feel that would be 2.5, but in this situation I gotta say I agree with @Draxen on this one.

ie; I am no staff member and this is my personal opinion from knowledge I have gained on the server in the past 7 years.

 

[Bnjemann]

I’m confused on this matter, i was under the impression that you could revenge kill users who mugged you for anything? Even if they didn’t actually take items of real financial loss off of you, it’s the principle of being gunpointed and held against your will to begin with. Is there a part to this that’s either gone unspoken or over my head?

I personally believe that a huge part of the gameplay aspect of PERP is building a reputation. Killing users over threatening and violent actions is a sure fire way to tell that person to take note of that next time they consider doing anything against them as a form of punishment against them and in many cases allows users who were uninvolved to see it and send them the same message.

Players regularly kill each other over more mundane reasons on perp such as raiding, car thefts, and trespassing, all of which is justified under 2.5 and according to the general player base, the law apparently, but that’s arguable legality wise. To me this is no different to any of that. I can break down someone’s door, see them with a gun on their back and kill them to steal the gun without any prior altercation or motive behind doing so beyond wanting a shootout.

The most boggling part about this is how you claim they killed your friend yet you have been told there’s no reason to kill them in return.

Whilst realistically it wouldn’t be very plausible for someone to get someone punished Judicially then murder them when they’re out of jail, this is after all a video game. Realistically, 8 year sentences also wouldn’t last 8 minutes.

Why is this a thing now, why should anyone care if someone got arrested after they killed their friend. What does that change... youre not a cop...

Agreed 100%, 8 minutes in jail shouldn’t be enough “revenge” for a murder and a robbery for a surviving victim to be satisfied about.

I think you are forgetting that this is a fast-paced game, that people want to jump right into.
The situation you described was structured in such a way that revenge would be taking it too far:
You got mugged - They killed your friend - The police caught them - They were jailed - You got your stuff back - All was well.
The people that mugged you are now finished. They want to move on, they want to go and do something else with their time.

By revenge killing them, you are not only taking it a step too far, you will be interrupting their play session for your own satisfaction, which is selfish and fatuous.
So revenge killing is most certainly in excess of 2.5, and beyond that.
So I think you're wrong, and in fact, I would've recommended punishment for your actions

By instigating an act of aggression against another user for your own financial gain you should be fully prepared to face the consequences of your own actions. When committing virtually any crime the possibility of death as a result of this should be present at all times. Obviously this goes hand in hand with my reputation comment above. Also, who’s not to say that these users wouldn’t then attempt to kill them for reporting their crime to the police? Those users under 2.5 would have reason and incentive to further target OP with criminal acts that threaten his life, well-being and financial status.

Whilst on this point of wasting peoples time, that arguably is a gameplay mechanic of PERP, killing users who inconvenience you through violence against you builds a reputation within the community that would at least discourage those people you killed from picking you as a victim. Contrary to what those who’s favourite weapon is 911 believe, No one is scared of a user who calls cops to do their work for them as to many users the PD isnt considered by them to be a viable threat worth saving. Him getting the police involved, whilst it did recover a portion of losses, as specified above, a weapon was lost as well as a friend, and the arrest certainly didn’t bring back his friend.

The gratification of killing certain users, whilst you claim is selfish, is unfortunately part of the thrill of PERP. Look at the list of activities that gain you org XP. Whilst certain org XP gaining activities essentially hurt no one, such as selling drugs, crafting and selling, a huge portion of them however, do. The game mode incentivises killing rivals, stealing cars, mugging users, and robbing the bank successfully, which results in the whole server being without law enforcement for 5 minutes.

As a moderator, I’d rather users kill each other over these reasons than become toxic to said users as a result which is unfortunately a long, often untouched-upon issue with perp, where users who can’t beat other users resort to some level of toxicity towards them through either verbal altercations in OOC or through reporting them en masse.

 

[mirage]

 

[Collier]

​

I'll try and put this in a way that is not confusing. As far as I am concerned, and what we ultimately agreed on in the admin meeting, is that in this situation specifically you were probably justified in killing him.

This player killed your friend and mugged you, you got your items back, but your time was wasted and they instigated this negative interaction, from which you never gained anything nor did you profit from it. You may have gotten your stuff back, but you were still mugged, you still had your time wasted, and your friend was still dead.

You weren't the one who forced your items off the mugger, that was me when I responded as Police.

You didn't get the satisfaction of killing him, nor did you get the satisfaction of mugging him yourself. As you, up until the point that you killed him, had not retaliated at all yourself, we agreed that killing him was not excessive after all.