Ban/Action Request Equality Discussion - Hear Me Out

[Ezrider]

So I'm going to be using 2 recent ban cases that just went down. I couldn't give 2 shits about either of the people banned but they're both perfect examples of ban inequality.

Alright so here's the two cases that I'll be comparing today read:AR#1 https://perpheads.com/threads/action-request-zhong-long-qua.10519/#post-78897 and AR#2 https://perpheads.com/threads/action-request-on-matt-grand-bean-can.10396/

both action requests are for 1.1, and not listed in AR #2: 1.4 and 3.24.

Now In AR #2 the user has 8 bans on record

Spoiler: ok

and is a complete minge when staff aren't around, no offense. In AR #2 user harasses a kid no older than 12 with the dialogue looking like "Mr. Downy cunt, 12 year old faggot, twat,fucking faggot/faggot x5+, retarded/retardedx5+, jokes about extended family, jokes about his age, kill yourself" and the user here is clearly having a kick out of the whole ordeal seeing the kid not talk because he's flustered and ends up losing his temper with the bully. The user in AR#2 has a kick out of the whole ordeal because he knows no real retaliation is going to go against him. After all is said and done, the user gets a warning in teampspeak taking advantage of @AyJay 's niceness even though, before this ordeal, him and Ayjay both agreed on a perm with his next "official" warning.

In AR#1 user has 1 ban on record

Spoiler: ok

and uses literally no degrading profanity and just says "I've seen kids playing house with better RP" than you and talks to the AR requester OOCly over voice because he starts talking in LOOC then he says "You're still quite pathetic and your level of maturity is at an all time low"(also mentions something about him getting bullied once because that's usually the case with people who make something petty a big deal, no offense). Because honestly, he took him saying that he needs to RP better the wrong way. This isn't breaking 1.1 at the slightest imo but you can be the judge. The ordeal presumably started when the AR requester got flustered when the user in AR #1 said "Can you please stop shitting on my rp? Just let him fucking visit me". Regardless, this user was banned for 2 months and only had 1 ban on record at the time.

The inequality between those bans is blatantly obvious. Either there is favoritism going on (highly doubt it) or people are just not sticking to procedures. There honestly should be a standard that staff should follow to rulebreakers instead of staff using their own discretion to avoid having cases like this look as unequal and as unfair as they are.
I know I'm not the one to talk but still, this is interesting to say the least. My AP Government class inspired me to make this thread.

Discuss.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Sometimes it may just come down to the Admins jurisdiction, however they are told (and in my opinion are not) to not be biased and to hear all sides of an argument before issuing a ban/warning. Whilst one moderator may give 1 month for a rule violation whilst another may give 2-3 weeks, I don't think it is down to personal grievances or inequality. It is pretty much down to the rule broken, as every AR is different.

For example. I have no bans on record but if I was to blatantly break a rule (such as shooting a cop over a ticket or running over everyone I see) then I would expect a harsh punishment, regardless of the fact I have no prior bans. However 1.1 is tedious in the sense that some fine offence, some find it as banter and some simply return the flak.

It's not a case of "He got this for breaking this rule, why should I get longer when I've been here longer" etc. The staff team do their best, it is not like Dark RP where they won't ban their friends etc.

tl;dr There is no Inequality.

 

[Ezrider]

and is a complete minge when staff aren't around, no offense. In AR #2 user harasses a kid no older than 12 with the dialogue looking like and is clearly havi

Sometimes it may just come down to the Admins jurisdiction, however they are told (and in my opinion are not) to not be biased and to hear all sides of an argument before issuing a ban/warning. Whilst one moderator may give 1 month for a rule violation whilst another may give 2-3 weeks, I don't think it is down to personal grievances or inequality. It is pretty much down to the rule broken, as every AR is different.

For example. I have no bans on record but if I was to blatantly break a rule (such as shooting a cop over a ticket or running over everyone I see) then I would expect a harsh punishment, regardless of the fact I have no prior bans. However 1.1 is tedious in the sense that some fine offence, some find it as banter and some simply return the flak.

It's not a case of "He got this for breaking this rule, why should I get longer when I've been here longer" etc. The staff team do their best, it is not like Dark RP where they won't ban their friends etc.

tl;dr There is no Inequality.

Obviously it's not like DarkRP but you can't overlook the fact that AR #1's rulebreaking was way more severe than AR #2s.

Furthermore your interpretation of 1.1 makes it seem like the user in AR #2 shouldn't of been banned for 2 months.

What I was pointing at is the difference of severity for the same rules broken and the need for an actual standard procedure to deal with rulebreakers instead of using "admins discretion" to avoid having obvious slip ups like this one.

 

[Mathias]

Sorry, I'm high

 

[M]

Pretty sure you already had your last chance.

 

[Minilarro]

It's up to the staff members' discretion, period.

 

[rogue]

It's all about Staff Discretion.
No one gives a flying piss what you think.

 

[Death Howl]

And what gives you a right to be judge and jury being part of the staff team is hard and just as hard as a supervisor. You should expect these slip ups from the staff and also were you there?

What the staff team has to do is massive it is not only oh he broke a rule ban him they have to investigate and look at the evidence. If the staff team do what you should do and no messing around if someone has broken the rules ban him would you trust them. The staff team is fine if you have a problem with how they operate you should take it up with Senior Administration.

The staff team has used the same system for a long time if it was not working I think it would have changed ages ago. One final word if you are not happy with the staff team then go for enforcer and see how hard it is just to get in.


But if you really want to shout out that the staff team is bad there is a door right behind you.

 

[Bean Can]

Ban Equality? Really is that what you are going for...

So I use OOC to talk about you playtime and use my mic to say things over the mic. Also after I talked to Ayjay and he said I did not break any rules in the sit. Also the 1.1 was the only time I came close to breaking 1.1 and you have seen you have. When you broke 1.1 you specifally used LOOC to use the language that you used. Also to add you did break another rules (Which is the rules you broke was quite brutal).

You stating that I abused "Ayjay's niceness" is a bit slander to be honest. I don't know why you are carrying this on just wait it out or admit that you are wrong.

 

[Ezrider]

And what gives you a right to be judge and jury being part of the staff team is hard and just as hard as a supervisor. You should expect these slip ups from the staff and also were you there?

What the staff team has to do is massive it is not only oh he broke a rule ban him they have to investigate and look at the evidence. If the staff team do what you should do and no messing around if someone has broken the rules ban him would you trust them. The staff team is fine if you have a problem with how they operate you should take it up with Senior Administration.

The staff team has used the same system for a long time if it was not working I think it would have changed ages ago. One final word if you are not happy with the staff team then go for enforcer and see how hard it is just to get in.


But if you really want to shout out that the staff team is bad there is a door right behind you.

Never claimed the staff team was bad anywhere within the thread what so ever. Don't put words in my mouth. I like the majority of staff members, I don't think that there's anyone that I don't like on the staff team even though that might not be likewise.

Now the thing is, the current system does work just not well if we're caring about fairness and what not. I also have brought it up to the Administration there's at least one member of staff who agrees with having a standard procedure for dealing with rule breakers instead of "Mod's Discretion" and until that's fixed I probably won't let Mod's deal with my action requests and I'll let an Admin handle it if possible.

The most the staff have to look at in terms of evidence, as far as I can see, is if they were warned and their recent bans and previous run ins with other moderators on the server. Overall, they're looking at the basic history of the player and the rest is up to them and that's far too much power imo but then again they are trusted with the position.


@Chris pretty sure I addressed that in the thread but --...

The fact that some of you may believe that staff discretion is a great way of handing out punishments for the sake of fairness is pretty funny to me however, most of you are young or just not knowledgeable enough to know how governments function. It's just to be expected.

I'm not saying it's bad and it doesn't work - I'm just saying that it isn't fair.
[DOUBLEPOST=1443229753,1443229416][/DOUBLEPOST]

Ban Equality? Really is that what you are going for...

So I use OOC to talk about you playtime and use my mic to say things over the mic. Also after I talked to Ayjay and he said I did not break any rules in the sit. Also the 1.1 was the only time I came close to breaking 1.1 and you have seen you have. When you broke 1.1 you specifally used LOOC to use the language that you used. Also to add you did break another rules (Which is the rules you broke was quite brutal).

You stating that I abused "Ayjay's niceness" is a bit slander to be honest. I don't know why you are carrying this on just wait it out or admit that you are wrong.

If the same admin that handed out ban #1 dealt with AR #2 - you most-likely wouldn't be playing on the server right now. I mean if you're using your disrespectful playground on the server isn't 1.1 then I don't know what to tell you buddy.

Also, it's not hard for you to be manipulative to get what you want. You know you minge when staff isn't around so I'm not sure how you want me to phrase the fact that you do in fact take advantage of AyJay's niceness. Otherwise you would follow the rules when the staff aren't on.

 

[Death Howl]

Never claimed the staff team was bad anywhere within the thread what so ever. Don't put words in my mouth. I like the majority of staff members, I don't think that there's anyone that I don't like on the staff team even though that might not be likewise.

Now the thing is, the current system does work just not well if we're caring about fairness and what not. I also have brought it up to the Administration there's at least one member of staff who agrees with having a standard procedure for dealing with rule breakers instead of "Mod's Discretion" and until that's fixed I probably won't let Mod's deal with my action requests and I'll let an Admin handle it if possible.

The most the staff have to look at in terms of evidence, as far as I can see, is if they were warned and their recent bans and previous run ins with other moderators on the server. Overall, they're looking at the basic history of the player and the rest is up to them and that's far too much power imo but then again they are trusted with the position.


@Chris pretty sure I addressed that in the thread but --...

The fact that some of you may believe that staff discretion is a great way of handing out punishments for the sake of fairness is pretty funny to me however, most of you are young or just not knowledgeable enough to know how governments function. It's just to be expected.

I'm not saying it's bad and it doesn't work - I'm just saying that it isn't fair.
[DOUBLEPOST=1443229753,1443229416][/DOUBLEPOST]

If the same admin that handed out ban #1 dealt with AR #2 - you most-likely wouldn't be playing on the server right now. I mean if you're using your disrespectful playground on the server isn't 1.1 then I don't know what to tell you buddy.

Also, it's not hard for you to be manipulative to get what you want. You know you minge when staff isn't around so I'm not sure how you want me to phrase the fact that you do in fact take advantage of AyJay's niceness. Otherwise you would follow the rules when the staff aren't on.

And how do you know if it will work for the better have you tested it on the server? The staff team can have alot of reports at once and not all of them are doing reports this sounds like it will take sometime. As it is well known some players has no intention to wait that long in an admin sit because they could take a long time anyway. You want to make the whole thing of deciding the ban even longer and with another report around the corner that is going to put stress on them and with the staff that has left already it is not needed.

If you have a problem with a ban issued by a staff member try contacting them first in teamspeak or pm them. However I do appreciate you trying to improve the way bans are decided. I will leave this to Senior Administration to decide.

 

[Skudist]

I don't understand what you want. The Player got punished for his rule break. The staff decides which punishment is right for this happening. The Staff doesn't care who the rulebreaker is, even if it is Obama, he would still ban him for the rule, he broke. There will nothing happen with this ban because of your post. IRL, there is also no book, which states what punishment the criminal broke. The judge decides, which punishment is right for the offense. Nothing will happen.

 

[Ezrider]

I don't understand what you want. The Player got punished for his rule break. The staff decides which punishment is right for this happening. The Staff doesn't care who the rulebreaker is, even if it is Obama, he would still ban him for the rule, he broke. There will nothing happen with this ban because of your post. IRL, there is also no book, which states what punishment the criminal broke. The judge decides, which punishment is right for the offense. Nothing will happen.

"I'm talking about following a structure on the way punishments are handed out in coherence with the rules so that punishments are fair and just and everyone gets what they deserve when they break the rules. Instead of what someone feels like "handing out today"."

Judges have a WIDE variety of evidence to choose from, they also have a jury etc. Also people are considered innocent until proven guilty which is a LONG process. All for the sake of fairness

PERP moderators don't have the same amount of time or the evidence to decide on an action that takes place. Therefore it's more or less based on their decision which leads us to unfair cases like AR #1 and #2.

If there was a structure made to hand out punishments fairly, there would be no need for "Moderators Discretion" and less complaints about punishment and biases. It would also get rid of unfair punishments like AR #2 and #1

 

[Exnem]

Judges have a WIDE variety of evidence to choose from, they also have a jury etc. Also people are considered innocent until proven guilty which is a LONG process. All for the sake of fairness

Well this isn't real life with all the judge system. You dispute a ban that is wrongfully placed, a system like this would just be wasting staff's time when they know you have done wrong until a demo is shown to prove THEM wrong. So for now, you are banned. Deal with it or you could try and dispute the ban or apologize to the community instead of coming harsh in like this.

You are either going to have to deal with the staff's discretion, or you could just click on the big red X in the top right corner and leave the community. That is up to you.

You really had no clue that either of those users are different, like @Bean Can and "oL] Ikuzashi"
Bean Can is clearly improving.
Ikuzashi isn't and therefore he's receiving more and more bans.

You clearly don't know anything about how this system works, and you really shouldn't be discussing it at all.
https://perpheads.com/forums/ban-appeals.33/ Either dispute it, or apologize.

 

[Ezrider]

Well this isn't real life with all the judge system. You dispute a ban that is wrongfully placed, a system like this would just be wasting staff's time when they know you have done wrong until a demo is shown to prove THEM wrong. So for now, you are banned. Deal with it or you could try and dispute the ban or apologize to the community instead of coming harsh in like this.

You are either going to have to deal with the staff's discretion, or you could just click on the big red X in the top right corner and leave the community. That is up to you.

You really had no clue that either of those users are different, like @Bean Can and "oL] Ikuzashi"
Bean Can is clearly improving.
Ikuzashi isn't and therefore he's receiving more and more bans.

You clearly don't know anything about how this system works, and you really shouldn't be discussing it at all.
https://perpheads.com/forums/ban-appeals.33/ Either dispute it, or apologize.

If I didn't know how the system worked I wouldn't be making this thread because that's just ignorant and stupid. Also your description of the way staff deals with things is actually in favor of my way of thinking, believe it or not. It wouldn't be a "a waste of time" by giving the correct punishments for rules that are broken for the sake of fairness.

All I'm suggesting is fairness and structure.

Bean Can wasn't in fact improving until I posted that action request. Ikuzashi could've received a "stern warning in teamspeak" just like Bean can and improve from there on out.

I'm not sure you understand the severity in which Bean Can broke 1.1 vs. Ikuzashi. Furthmore ikuzashi only had one ban on record and Bean Can had 8, Ayjay's last warning, and continued to minge until I posted my AR against him. I don't know about now because I haven't seen him In game since then. But it's ok if you want to overlook the unfairness because you're so used to the system.

People are afraid of change and it's inherently obvious in you. It's to be expected.

 

[Exnem]

Ezrider.

Your recent ban really shows no improvement from your part, why are you complaining on the current system?
Your bans are 10-20 days apart and that's what the system is based around. Bans depend on how long since you've been banned and yours were clearly under 15-20 days. Where as Bean Can's are far apart, and therefore he receives a shorter ban time. If he continued to get banned he would eventually be permanently banned.

If you have no clue, don't post.

 

[Ezrider]

Ezrider.

Your recent ban really shows no improvement from your part, why are you complaining on the current system?
Your bans are 10-20 days apart and that's what the system is based around. Bans depend on how long since you've been banned and yours were clearly under 15-20 days. Where as Bean Can's are far apart, and therefore he receives a shorter ban time. If he continued to get banned he would eventually be permanently banned.

If you have no clue, don't post.

This is a great example of your ignorance. However, I won't get into detail. This thread isn't about me, it's about the two cases of unfairness.

I'm not defending my bans, couldn't really care, as far as I'm concerned I only have one ban on record and that's that ban. What I suggest is you quit posting on the thread because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

Once again, I'm suggesting equal punishment across the board for rule breaking. Perhaps you should think before you say things, it helps.

 

[Death Howl]

If I didn't know how the system worked I wouldn't be making this thread because that's just ignorant and stupid. Also your description of the way staff deals with things is actually in favor of my way of thinking, believe it or not. It wouldn't be a "a waste of time" by giving the correct punishments for rules that are broken for the sake of fairness.

All I'm suggesting is fairness and structure.

Bean Can wasn't in fact improving until I posted that action request. Ikuzashi could've received a "stern warning in teamspeak" just like Bean can and improve from there on out.

I'm not sure you understand the severity in which Bean Can broke 1.1 vs. Ikuzashi. Furthmore ikuzashi only had one ban on record and Bean Can had 8, Ayjay's last warning, and continued to minge until I posted my AR against him. I don't know about now because I haven't seen him In game since then. But it's ok if you want to overlook the unfairness because you're so used to the system.

People are afraid of change and it's inherently obvious in you. It's to be expected.

I see where this is going so let me ask you this question about right and wrong. Two players are caught breaking the same rule one is new and some has witnessed possible mingery. The second has alot more bans and warnings but are not very recent and he is a very active player. Would you give the longer ban to the new guy who people has seen minging or to the veteran who has improved from his previous bans.

There is some players with a seriously high amount of bans but it is how recent and if they are for the same rule that counts. So let me ask you again who should get the longer ban.

I have been in admin sits only one was against me and I know that only recent bans and repeat offences directly impacts ban time.

 

[Ezrider]

I see where this is going so let me ask you this question about right and wrong. Two players are caught breaking the same rule one is new and some has witnessed possible mingery. The second has alot more bans and warnings but are not very recent and he is a very active player. Would you give the longer ban to the new guy who people has seen minging or to the veteran who has improved from his previous bans.

There is some players with a seriously high amount of bans but it is how recent and if they are for the same rule that counts. So let me ask you again who should get the longer ban.

I have been in admin sits only one was against me and I know that only recent bans and repeat offences directly impacts ban time.

The first one is a new player with no bans on record, you didn't mention warnings either so you would give him a warning and tell him to actually read up on the rules.

The second's punishment would depend on the last time he had a warning or a ban and the rule broken.

You're on the right track- I'm talking about a set structure of punishments in coherence with the rules. But this kind of isn't it and I really, really, really, really appreciate the fact that you're not shitting on this thread with clear immaturity and lack on knowledge.

Thanks for being the first!

 

[Exnem]

As far as I am concerned you don't have

one ban on record

In fact:

Your first ban was 4 days, which means that was a severe rulebreak. Then you were banned again by @Fredy. All in the period of one month in one year. You don't really care about the server, so why are you creating this thread?