Rule Suggestion (2.5 Excessive Negativity)

[HuskyD0G]

Suggestion Topic: 2.5 Excessive Negativity
Suggestion Description: Add a line to the rule specifically stating that molotovs cannot be used in a raid in any form.

Why should this be added?:
- Rule does not state you can't use it in a raid, admins just use their discretion and say it's "unnecessary" even though I and others have used it to flush people out of cover and the rule lacks clarity

Molotovs cannot be used during a raid on a players property

Or something along the lines

What negatives could this have?:
- None, just improves the clarity and reduces confusion

 

[Bnjemann]

I'm writing my own rule suggestion that should cover this.

 

[HuskyD0G]

I'm writing my own rule suggestion that should cover this.

It needs to be clarified, I just received a warning for it when it's not outlined at all

 

[flugs]

in my own experience handling reports of this yeah it’s one of those things you need to be explicitly told and / or (most likely) punished for to know. definitely worth a mention in the examples!! good suggestion

 

[blobvis 2.0]

2.5 Excessive Negativity​

Players may not excessively impact the experience of others in a negative manner, unless the actions are a proportionate escalation of negative actions that have been performed against the original player.

It clearly states YOU SHOULD NOT IMPACT others in a negative way, burning down 60k worth of props just to flush someone out and gaining literally nothing of the raid because it burnt down is not excessive negatively enough for you?

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.

This line specifically states even what you are saying, your reasoning is flushing people out, yet the player's items are damaged in the process and you are not gaining anything from it as the reason you are raiding (either their guns or drugs or both) is deleted as soon as you throw a molotov. Fire spread is fast enough to not be easily extinguishable.

 

[flugs]

2.5 Excessive Negativity​

Players may not excessively impact the experience of others in a negative manner, unless the actions are a proportionate escalation of negative actions that have been performed against the original player.

It clearly states YOU SHOULD NOT IMPACT others in a negative way, burning down 60k worth of props just to flush someone out and gaining literally nothing of the raid because it burnt down is not excessive negatively enough for you?

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.

This line specifically states even what you are saying, your reasoning is flushing people out, yet the player's items are damaged in the process and you are not gaining anything from it as the reason you are raiding (either their guns or drugs or both) is deleted as soon as you throw a molotov. Fire spread is fast enough to not be easily extinguishable.

yeah but also the rules are read subjectively by people and this is something that loads of people slip up on despite having read the rules. no harm in specifically stating it, the examples are meant to be relevant and helpful after all !!!!

 

[blobvis 2.0]

yeah but also the rules are read subjectively by people and this is something that loads of people slip up on despite having read the rules. no harm in specifically stating it, the examples are meant to be relevant and helpful after all !!!!

People still always run across the highway intersection even though it literally states in the rule 3.4

• Running on the highway without a justifiable reason

You would be surprised of the amount of people running across it every day or running the red light at intersection. Adding these things only makes the list longer and less and less is read that way. If you want to flush them out use nades not molotovs. Mentioning it will do literally nothing as it already states in the rules you are not allowed to do it.

But sure adding one line every month won't matter right? What is next month's addition? You are not allowed to hit afk people at spawn or hit random people everywhere? that happens too often too.

I think it shows how lack of thinking people use instead of reading the rules, actions have consequences, if you shoot one cop the force comes after you, if you throw a molotov you burn a whole place or 5 down, its excessive and clearly as 2.5 states "Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged." in combination with "Players may not excessively impact the experience of others in a negative manner". The goal of the molotov was to flush people out, hence the props of the players are unnecessary collateral and there is no bonus to using it as you literally lose your raid as it burns down in front of your eyes thus breaking 2.5, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

If you want to add a line, add: "Players should not cause excessive damage (or monetary loss) to property, cars and items of another player when attempting to interact with another person (or raiding a person)" referring to cars, molotovs, car bombs, killing to gain guns in public, and more.

 

[flugs]

People still always run across the highway intersection even though it literally states in the rule 3.4

• Running on the highway without a justifiable reason

You would be surprised of the amount of people running across it every day or running the red light at intersection. Adding these things only makes the list longer and less and less is read that way. If you want to flush them out use nades not molotovs. Mentioning it will do literally nothing as it already states in the rules you are not allowed to do it.

But sure adding one line every month won't matter right? What is next month's addition? You are not allowed to hit afk people at spawn or hit random people everywhere? that happens too often too.

I think it shows how lack of thinking people use instead of reading the rules, actions have consequences, if you shoot one cop the force comes after you, if you throw a molotov you burn a whole place or 5 down, its excessive and clearly as 2.5 states "Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged." in combination with "Players may not excessively impact the experience of others in a negative manner". The goal of the molotov was to flush people out, hence the props of the players are unnecessary collateral and there is no bonus to using it as you literally lose your raid as it burns down in front of your eyes thus breaking 2.5, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

If you want to add a line, add: "Players should not cause excessive damage (or monetary loss) to property, cars and items of another player when attempting to interact with another person (or raiding a person)" referring to cars, molotovs, car bombs, killing to gain guns in public, and more.

let’s just not add a line every month then, cool? i’m merely saying this is just one of those things that it could be beneficial to have directly stated as opposed to expecting new players to have to interpret it from a long and daunting list of rules. lots of people don’t think and people who don’t think can get fucked, that applies to your intersection example, but i don’t see what the problem is with having more examples than less, it makes more things common knowledge and reduces the amount of overthinking people have to do when really that’s the opposite of what you wanna be doing playing a game. i don’t think i’ve met anyone who inferred this rule from reading the line about incendiaries but i guess i’ve never really asked so that’s weak from me ;;;(((((

 

[HuskyD0G]

let’s just not add a line every month then, cool? i’m merely saying this is just one of those things that it could be beneficial to have directly stated as opposed to expecting new players to have to interpret it from a long and daunting list of rules. lots of people don’t think and people who don’t think can get fucked, that applies to your intersection example, but i don’t see what the problem is with having more examples than less, it makes more things common knowledge and reduces the amount of overthinking people have to do when really that’s the opposite of what you wanna be doing playing a game. i don’t think i’ve met anyone who inferred this rule from reading the line about incendiaries but i guess i’ve never really asked so that’s weak from me ;;;(((((

I don't see how burning props to flush out someone from cover is negative when they have shot at you. Which is why it should be outlined it is subjective. You are exactly right when you say it is subjective because me as a person who thinks mostly negative about things, does not see that as a negative outcome. If it can't be used in raids period it should state it. I shouldn't be getting punished for subjective wording when I clearly read the rules already.

 

[flugs]

I don't see how burning props to flush out someone from cover is negative when they have shot at you. Which is why it should be outlined it is subjective. You are exactly right when you say it is subjective because me as a person who thinks mostly negative about things, does not see that as a negative outcome. If it can't be used in raids period it should state it. I shouldn't be getting punished for subjective wording when I clearly read the rules already.

i don't think i read your suggestion very well last night. this isn't allowed like there's no debate there, i'm just in favour of that being written as an example in the rules. to be punished for it is unfortunately how a lot of people learn this, that's why i think adding it as an example is a nice way of boiling the rule down to something very relevant and could help avoid future punishments for this kinda thing.

 

[GainAxe]

2.5 Excessive Negativity​

Players may not excessively impact the experience of others in a negative manner, unless the actions are a proportionate escalation of negative actions that have been performed against the original player.

It clearly states YOU SHOULD NOT IMPACT others in a negative way, burning down 60k worth of props just to flush someone out and gaining literally nothing of the raid because it burnt down is not excessive negatively enough for you?

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.

This line specifically states even what you are saying, your reasoning is flushing people out, yet the player's items are damaged in the process and you are not gaining anything from it as the reason you are raiding (either their guns or drugs or both) is deleted as soon as you throw a molotov. Fire spread is fast enough to not be easily extinguishable.

I agree, also its a bit common sense that you shouldn't throw a Molotov into someone's apartment for a raid, as you will gain nothing, and they will lose a lot.

 

[Japzzi/JoeReel]

I don't understand how using molotovs in raids are not allowed. The rule uses as examples:

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.
  

So, since the player is defending, he is actively involved in the situation. I believe that the example above would better apply to attacks in more open areas.

 

[Bnjemann]

I don't see how burning props to flush out someone from cover is negative when they have shot at you. Which is why it should be outlined it is subjective. You are exactly right when you say it is subjective because me as a person who thinks mostly negative about things, does not see that as a negative outcome. If it can't be used in raids period it should state it. I shouldn't be getting punished for subjective wording when I clearly read the rules already.

I don't understand how using molotovs in raids are not allowed. The rule uses as examples:

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.

So, since the player is defending, he is actively involved in the situation. I believe that the example above would better apply to attacks in more open areas.

???

Burning down the property I am actively trying to steal from the moment I see armed resistance despite the fact that this entirely contradicts my initial reason for instigating combat on that apartment to begin with. I’d might have well been better off just burning it down unprovoked instead of actively attempting to steal from it as being shot at by defenders is an almost guaranteed inevitability in raiding.

Hypothetically, in this situation, you instigated the situation by attacking them with intent of stealing from them in which you are then destroying their property whilst actively removing any profit and increasing the risk to your own life should you take drastic, almost impossible to guarantee action to then put out the fire and claim the profits as punishment for them simply defending themselves.

If you’re burning properties you’re raiding you’re only really:
- Burning property and props as punishment for your own instigation, essentially entrapping people into losing property despite not deserving to do so.
- Burning profits
- Locking yourself in a disadvantaged position because cops will respond and likely force you to hold out within the apartment you have burnt.
- Limiting access of that property for the owners to ever come back until a fireman comes on or a moderator takes pity and swings there godstick.

Theres also the fact that absolutely no one can fight the fire in this situation, since:
- Firemen can’t come in until it’s clear
- Police officers cannot fight it with extinguishers without risk of getting shot
- Raiders aren’t going to sit and fight a fire.


this in turn makes it a GUARANTEE that the players who own the base are 100% losing props.

Also, since it’s disallowed to harvest or store when your life is in danger, please tell me how you plan on Harvesting drugs from a burning apartment?

Do not pretend that you’ll ever consistently come out of it alive, let alone with any sort of viable profit when you fire bomb a base to steal from it when there’s police online.

Anyone who thinks that allowing molotov’s in raids would be anything but an absolute shitfest is a class act idiot and will immediately regret vouching for this ever being allowed if it gets changed to allow it and I spend the better portion of my day crowbarring their door and molotoving it the moment I’m shot at through it because “They tried to kill me, so I bring fire”.

 

[Japzzi/JoeReel]

Anyone who thinks that allowing molotov’s in raids is a class act idiot

Very disheartening to see this kind of rhetoric from a moderator.
You are solely basing your assumption on the idea that people will only raid to steal things. Moreover, your list of ''What ifs'' comes from the assumption that most of if not the entire Police Department is dead. It is not unseen that the entire Police Department dies, and the raiders go on a little raiding spree. Or that people raid the property to only steal things, organization beef might come to mind as another excuse.

I fully agree with Simon that the rule needs changing, because it is clear that there can happen confusion regarding the use of Molotovs in raids, especially because as I stated above the

• Use explosives or incendiaries without taking precautions to ensure that uninvolved player's items are not damaged.

If you are defending a raid, you are actively involved in the situation. I was about to write the meaning of the word ''involvement'' or being ''involved'' in something, but I think that will be condescending, especially because I believe that we agree on the premise that the rule does not make it clear that Molotovs are not allowed to be used in raids.

 

[HuskyD0G]

???

Burning down the property I am actively trying to steal from the moment I see armed resistance despite the fact that this entirely contradicts my initial reason for instigating combat on that apartment to begin with. I’d might have well been better off just burning it down unprovoked instead of actively attempting to steal from it as being shot at by defenders is an almost guaranteed inevitability in raiding.

Hypothetically, in this situation, you instigated the situation by attacking them with intent of stealing from them in which you are then destroying their property whilst actively removing any profit and increasing the risk to your own life should you take drastic, almost impossible to guarantee action to then put out the fire and claim the profits as punishment for them simply defending themselves.

If you’re burning properties you’re raiding you’re only really:
- Burning property and props as punishment for your own instigation, essentially entrapping people into losing property despite not deserving to do so.
- Burning profits
- Locking yourself in a disadvantaged position because cops will respond and likely force you to hold out within the apartment you have burnt.
- Limiting access of that property for the owners to ever come back until a fireman comes on or a moderator takes pity and swings there godstick.

Theres also the fact that absolutely no one can fight the fire in this situation, since:
- Firemen can’t come in until it’s clear
- Police officers cannot fight it with extinguishers without risk of getting shot
- Raiders aren’t going to sit and fight a fire.


this in turn makes it a GUARANTEE that the players who own the base are 100% losing props.

Also, since it’s disallowed to harvest or store when your life is in danger, please tell me how you plan on Harvesting drugs from a burning apartment?

Do not pretend that you’ll ever consistently come out of it alive, let alone with any sort of viable profit when you fire bomb a base to steal from it when there’s police online.

Anyone who thinks that allowing molotov’s in raids would be anything but an absolute shitfest is a class act idiot and will immediately regret vouching for this ever being allowed if it gets changed to allow it and I spend the better portion of my day crowbarring their door and molotoving it the moment I’m shot at through it because “They tried to kill me, so I bring fire”.

I think your reply comes off as a bit overtly toxic. The point of the suggestion is to add clarification to new and existing players to avoid confusion. No one said they should be allowed in raids, me and others read the rules and see nothing in 2.5 stating that they cannot be used in raids "Specifically" All we are asking for is some clarification to the rule so newer players and skilled players alike don't mis-interpret the rules. I am not the only person who has accidently broken this rule. The person you were replying to is mis-interpreting himself, asking that it be allowed. However the Original post is to simply outline it is not allowed period. If molotov's are so impactful to others in the game mode, then why not specifically state they cannot be used in that manor? It would save time from staff having to deal with it if somewhat seasoned players saw it directly outlined within the rules and would be worth adding since it has such a huge impact on gameplay.

 

[Efan]

Will be added/made more clear