Rule Suggestion (5.3 Raiding)

[Birksy]

Suggestion Topic: 5.3 Raiding
Suggestion Description: Back in the "Old days" criminals could flank the bases they were defending after their NLR was finished, the information had to be gained after the NLR timer to enable you to flank. This was much better as it stopped police from waiting for their NLR to come and re-enforce, a lot of raids recently police will camp and wait for another wave which on paper makes it impossible for the PLPD to lose raids.

5.3 Currently states - "Players who died whilst being raided may also not return to the situation until it has finished.". I feel this should be changed to "Players who died whilst being raided may return after their NLR has expired, as long as the information that their friends need a flank has been received after their NLR timer has expired.".

NEW SUGGESTION, FOLLOWING PEOPLE'S RESPONSES:
Police should not be allowed to respond back to shootouts they have already died in.

Why should this be added?:
- Currently, police can wait for their dead officers to respawn so they can come back, which makes it impossible for the raiders to win if police use this tactic.
- Flanking is much more fun and added the element of snipers and silencers being used more often.
- Can be more tactical with flanking, by having to utilise different areas of the map to enable you to get a good flank

What negatives could this have?:
- Only con I could see is crim vs crim, if crims who die in a base can flank it would make raiding harder as you have 10 minutes to be in and out. However, the rule could state that if criminals are raiding you you are not allowed to come back until the situation is over. I just wanted to get the community's opinion on this, as I am on the fence about it myself.

 

[Birksy]

The reason I dislike ideas like these is that it encourages people to say "welp, now we killed the entire police force, might aswell linger around and collect all the guns and just spend lots of time here" instead of "lets get the fuck out".

Right now, there's a rush when you kill cops. After a bank robbery recently, Ayjay and myself scrambled to get all the guns under a time pressure and get the hell out before the cops would show up again. If I knew the police couldn't respond again, I would have taken my sweet ass time. The way it works now really sets the expectations that if you stick in the area, they're just gonna keep coming. It's on YOU to leave the area. Not the police to stop responding.
Same argument can be made for bases. You get raided and win, you either clean up quick or you get the hell out and find a new place to live. It's not impossible, and it has the intended effect: Making criminals work quicker to go in to hiding, or punish them for being too greedy and slow. And in the end, that's the only reason you're losing to NLR-respawned cops: Greed.

In essence, what @Maia said

The thing is there is a rule against this, yes it would make more work for the staff team to get them to swiftly move people on. However, cops should still be able to investigate if in their new life they physically see someone picking guns up/dragging bodies. Furthermore, there will be criminals who can wait for the cops to leave and it will be more counter-raids as they are more viable and not so against the rules as once the police are gone the police are gone and you don't have to worry about when you can counter as much as you currently do.

 

[KeiwaM]

Well at the same time how do you balance that with hypothetically around 25 cops on where if in a scenario for example, tfu was to die. They just have patrol stall then tfu comes back and does more damage to crims (not to mention the very real threat of the other 20 armored pistol cops surrounding you).

Leave while they're "patrol stalling". I literally don't get how this is an argument.

The thing is there is a rule against this, yes it would make more work for the staff team to get them to swiftly move people on. However, cops should still be able to investigate if in their new life they physically see someone picking guns up/dragging bodies. Furthermore, there will be criminals who can wait for the cops to leave and it will be more counter-raids as they are more viable and not so against the rules as once the police are gone the police are gone and you don't have to worry about when you can counter as much as you currently do.

I don't get how this ties in to this suggestion? A counter-raid is not really the same situation if the cops have arrived, killed them, investigated, left and the NLR timer has expired. So you can do this regardless? I really don't get the point of this suggestion, other than "make crim less risky". Besides, as you already said, this only serves to give staff MORE stuff to keep an eye on during shootouts, while we are already looking at mingegrabbers, sweaters and people loitering around shootouts. It doesn't serve a purpose to change it.

 

[Eric Jonson]

Well at the same time how do you balance that with hypothetically around 25 cops on where if in a scenario for example, tfu was to die. They just have patrol stall then tfu comes back and does more damage to crims (not to mention the very real threat of the other 20 armored pistol cops surrounding you).

I get that the realism of hastily needing to get out and punishing greed is great, I don’t think that I would be willing to give up a balanced playing field which is fun for both sides just for that though.

This is why people are saying crims should be allowed back due to it being the compromise which sustains the greed punishment but gives somewhat of a help in balancing the scales back to a fun level. It’s people risking their guns and money and drugs vs an army of armored enemies with free guns and cars so when you wipe police you damn well earned that.

If your set up correctly it's not hard to wipe the entire PD. 1 Flanker can do that easily

 

[MalekIsWeird]

If there is 20 cops doesnt mean 20 cops have to respond, the more you kill, the more will come, this happens IRL aswell.
You don't think the whole force will show up if you shoot one of them?
And if you wipe one PD the next one will just come, so it does seem realistic in that way.

And the patrol is easy to pass, just get in your car and drive off, if they follow you, disable their car and escape again

Bank robbery.

 

[KeiwaM]

Bank robbery.

you do realise some, if not most bank robberies consists of 2 or 3 people with AS50's sniping every single cop that even approaches Intersection?

 

[MalekIsWeird]

you do realise some, if not most bank robberies consists of 2 or 3 people with AS50's sniping every single cop that even approaches Intersection?

With all due respect I believe you didn’t observe my argument properly and you don’t currently understand what it truly is. So allow me to clarify and reiterate in a shorter fashion which may be more easily digestible template.

Claim: either forbid cops from returning or ideally allow criminals to return after NLR if reminded of the scene in roleplay.

Balancing: an army of free rifle / pistol wielding, armor wearing and free car driving enemies circling in on you from all around in sheer number that get to return vs your 8 man group is when you’re risking all your cars and guns doesn’t seem fair or enjoyable for most people regardless of how unrealistic it may be, realism isn’t really a good argument.

Reward vs risk: The argument that because the criminals brought 3 AS50s is moot when you realize TFU can also have snipers for free!

Sustains Punishment: if both sides are allowed back. The cops sustain the ability to heavily punish crime for greed and return in the masses while criminals must be reminded after waiting the timer in some way making it a little more fair while sustaining the greed punishment for those who linger.

 

[Jenga]

Until the plpd realise you dont have to drive straight into a gunfight we should just keep all their advantages - dont think they can fathom being shot from 2 different places

 

[KeiwaM]

With all due respect I believe you didn’t observe my argument properly and you don’t currently understand what it truly is. So allow me to clarify and reiterate in a shorter fashion which may be more easily digestible template.

Claim: either forbid cops from returning or ideally allow criminals to return after NLR if reminded of the scene in roleplay.

Balancing: an army of free rifle / pistol wielding, armor wearing and free car driving enemies circling in on you from all around in sheer number that get to return vs your 8 man group is when you’re risking all your cars and guns doesn’t seem fair or enjoyable for most people regardless of how unrealistic it may be, realism isn’t really a good argument.

Reward vs risk: The argument that because the criminals brought 3 AS50s is moot when you realize TFU can also have snipers for free!

Sustains Punishment: if both sides are allowed back. The cops sustain the ability to heavily punish crime for greed and return in the masses while criminals must be reminded after waiting the timer in some way making it a little more fair while sustaining the greed punishment for those who linger.

And you clearly don't get the point of everything that's been said prior to this.

Allowing criminals to return will ENCOURAGE criminals to stick around in an area, prolonging shootouts and playing risky. This is not only against the rules, but something that should be discouraged. It is done so with the cops being allowed to actually do their job and return to a crime scene. Because if you start killing officers and you're STILL there after 10 minutes+ you're doing something wrong. Full stop. What you're suggesting and what this is suggesting is removing the actual punishment for criminals, because they can just return and pick up their gun. Done deal.

 

[Ashur]

Bank robbery.

You clearly don't seem to understand why these rules are in place, all these problems would most likely be solved if these rules are followed more in my opinion, it has never been different

 

[MalekIsWeird]

And you clearly don't get the point of everything that's been said prior to this.

Allowing criminals to return will ENCOURAGE criminals to stick around in an area, prolonging shootouts and playing risky. This is not only against the rules, but something that should be discouraged. It is done so with the cops being allowed to actually do their job and return to a crime scene. Because if you start killing officers and you're STILL there after 10 minutes+ you're doing something wrong. Full stop. What you're suggesting and what this is suggesting is removing the actual punishment for criminals, because they can just return and pick up their gun. Done deal.

Sir, I never said criminals should “still be there after 10 minutes+”. I literally acknowledged that in all of my replies on this thread that I agree with and I enjoy the greed punishment aspect.


The reason we disagree and I say criminals should return is because it’s not anything like a cop returning. The sheer number of people returning instantly just as suited and in gear as they were in their prior life vs maybe a few people who got lucky to be reminded so they return with whatever they can get their hands on fast enough to arrive is not a equal playing field, which is fine I’m happy alwjth the cops being given the upper hand as they should. However undeniably it does help balance out the playing field.

 

[Birksy]

You clearly don't seem to understand why these rules are in place, all these problems would most likely be solved if these rules are followed more in my opinion, it has never been different

It was different, you use to be ab;e to flank after your NLR.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

You clearly don't seem to understand why these rules are in place, all these problems would most likely be solved if these rules are followed more in my opinion, it has never been different

I’m not as close to being a veteran as you or KeiwaM so sure you probably know why they were instilled in the first place. I am just using logic and reasoning to deduce a solution that makes the server better, that’s all.

 

[KeiwaM]

It was different, you use to be ab;e to flank after your NLR.

I remember. I also remember this being insanely annoying, cause people would just wander around, cause their friends just returned.

I’m not as close to being a veteran as you or KeiwaM so sure you probably know why they were instilled in the first place. I am just using logic and reasoning to deduce a solution that makes the server better, that’s all.

It's fine to suggest it, and I encourage this discussion. The only reason I am so against this is becaues I remember the time where this WAS allowed, and it was not a fun experience.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

I remember. I also remember this being insanely annoying, cause people would just wander around, cause their friends just returned.



It's fine to suggest it, and I encourage this discussion. The only reason I am so against this is becaues I remember the time where this WAS allowed, and it was not a fun experience.

I understand your frustrations and I appreciate your input my friend.

May I ask you to set aside your previous anecdotes and scrutinize my current argument for what it is based on the logic, reasoning and deductions provided rather than simply opposing it due to personal negative experiences because I believe that a singular anecdotal observation shouldn’t dictate the answer to a problem which affects a large group of individuals each with their own anecdote in most cases.

 

[Ashur]

I understand your frustrations and I appreciate your input my friend.

May I ask you to set aside your previous anecdotes and scrutinize my current argument for what it is based on the logic, reasoning and deductions provided rather than simply opposing it due to personal negative experiences because I believe that a singular anecdotal observation shouldn’t dictate the answer to a problem which affects a large group of individuals each with their own anecdote in most cases.

Well mainly because you can not really have an in between, as for crims they can grab any guns, call anyone they want and keep returning, cops are somewhat limited if they are not TFU, and dont forget it differs how many cops are on duty.

This being changed will most likely cause more trouble than not.

If people followed the rule this wouldnt even be a problem seeing you can just leave when cops are just patrolling waiting for reinforcements

 

[MalekIsWeird]

Well mainly because you can not really have an in between, as for crims they can grab any guns, call anyone they want and keep returning, cops are somewhat limited if they are not TFU, and dont forget it differs how many cops are on duty.

Criminals being called by a survivor as backup, having to drive to a storage, get a gun they’re willing to risk on top of what they already lost, get a car then drive back after 10 minutes compared to even just a patrol officer respawn if then spawning his free cruiser to drive back and use his free pistol with his armor protecting him with his stamina buff and free meds (no reminder or call to respond needed) seems logically like it’s more in favor of cops.

This being changed will most likely cause more trouble than not.

If people followed the rule this wouldnt even be a problem seeing you can just leave when cops are just patrolling waiting for reinforcements

But what is the likelihood based on other than mere prediction?

I totally agree people should be following rules but there I haven’t understood a single correlation between people breaking NLR and this suggestion being a bad suggestion?

 

[Tyla Jai]