Police Suggestion Shotgun Training for Senior Officers

[Allen Kennedy]

Brief description of idea:
Similar to how taser training works right now, where a regular officer must complete taser training before being granted access to that equipment, and must be taser certified to be able to apply for Senior Officer, I believe that Senior Officers should undergo training to be able to use the Remington 870 shotgun, and must have completed it to be able to apply for Corporal.

What benefits would this idea have for the department:
Well there's the obvious, which is more officers with access to better equipment, which would increase the survivability of senior officers, who make up a sizeable minority of the police force.
I also believe that requiring training for the shotgun, and having it be a prerequisite for applying for Corporal would increase effectiveness and policy adherence of all officers who use it.
I think it will also inspire lower ranked officers to get their shit together and become Senior Officer to do the training, cause a shotgun is a hell of a carrot when all you have is a 9mm pistol and a taser.

What potential negatives could this have for the department:
I can't see this having any downside for the department, provided the training is adequate, however I can see it potentially being unbalanced against criminals, though perhaps not as much as one might think. To combat it being unbalanced, I have a few optional suggestions below.

Other additions:
When shotgun is equipped, officers lose the sprinting speed boost which enables them to catch up to fleeing suspects. This, if accompanied by adequate training and strict policy adherence, would prevent officers from having the shotgun equipped all the time, as if they did, they'd be unable to effectively engage in a foot pursuit, which is realistic, because if you're sprinting after someone, a large, cumbersome weapon on your back isn't going to help much.
Code it so every car comes with a shotgun and ammo, but officers without the shotgun training are unable to take either from the trunk, and a little message says that they can't use that weapon.

 

[Sean]

I don't see how you've not been able to identify at least 1 more negative to giving shotguns to Senior Officers so I will help you out with my personal opinion below.

Firstly, as we all know when people are of the rank Senior Officer or below, a lot of them do not take the role seriously and often minge around with their equipment such as by using it for fun against random civilians or using it against each other to joke around which causes a lot of issues. For this reason, the taser whitelist was created in order to counter the abuse of the taser and although this has helped the problem a lot people still don't follow the taser policy correctly. With this being said, the taser is a non-lethal weapon which does significantly less damage than a shotgun, so messing around with a taser isn't as bad opposed to giving Senior Officers a weapon which they can show off and mess around with.

Next, in my opinion it isn't really hard to get Senior Officer. As it currently stands all you really need to do in order to have a good chance at getting the rank is some good OR's and a standard level of activity which can show command that you take the role a little bit more serious than an Officer does. Therefore, although Senior Officer's would have to undergo training to prove they can use the shotgun correctly its still very easy for them to get into the training and constantly retry it until they finally get it as the training would have to follow some kind of mark scheme which after every try they would begin to work out what they've done right and wrong. Also we all know once they have passed this they don't exactly have to conduct themselves with the shotgun exactly how they did in the training as they're not under supervision all the time.

Furthermore, although multiple command teams would be involved in the training for the shotgun, currently as it stands I don't believe we have enough trainers who are able to facilitate these training sessions constantly throughout the week as they wouldn't exactly be fast paced due to them needing to verify if a person can be trusted with a shotgun. In addition, the department is also going through some other changes which involve more frequent meetings so as it currently stands I believe command teams would prefer to focus on these matters rather than a new training programme.

Lastly, you mentioned how this training programme would encourage new Officers to take the role more seriously however, I believe the incentive of progression up to the rank of Corporal where you receive a shotgun already does this as when I was new to the PLPD the first thing I ever wanted to do was progress and take on the role of a higher rank with new responsibilities/equipment so if they take it seriously so should they. Also, if their going to constantly minge and the only reason for temporarily putting it on hold would be to get access to the shotgun then I personally would prefer it if they didn't get one in the first place as they clearly aren't going to take the role seriously further down the line when they get bored of it.

In conclusion, I wish you luck with this idea however, I personally disagree with it and I would not support it going forward.

 

[Murtsley]

Just get corporal brainlet

 

[kerzify]

In my opinion this is an awful idea, It's a bit worrying how you don't see any possible issues this could have, I have to fully agree with Sean here.

Due to Officer > Senior Officer isn't really a difficult jump, This will cause major overflooding of Senior Officers carrying Shotguns and increases the chances of Misuse by a mile. This would also take something away from achieving the rank from Senior Officer to Corporal as the Shotgun and Divisions such as IA are the only things that become accessible when you rank up. It also takes the chance away from Corporals showing that they are capable of being responsible with equipment such as a large firearm which can be easily misused.

In my personal opinion and probably the majority could agree, Senior Officers and Corporal are setup fine and I don't think anything needs to be added on or taken away from either ranks.

For an Officer to come straight to the PLPD, Spend 2 ish weeks and then to get promoted to Senior and be able to take a mini training session to be able to maintain a Shotgun seems a bit absurd.

 

[Dom_]

No comment.

 

[Allen Kennedy]

1: "For an Officer to come straight to the PLPD, Spend 2 ish weeks and then to get promoted to Senior and be able to take a mini training session to be able to maintain a Shotgun seems a bit absurd."

2: "This will cause major overflooding of Senior Officers carrying Shotguns and increases the chances of Misuse by a mile."

1: How is it absurd? I know cops who've been on for six years who I wouldn't trust with a tablespoon and new cops who've proven their competency almost immediately.

2: Additionally, I think having officers go through an actual shotgun-specific application and training session will reduce the chance of misuse.

3: "Firstly, as we all know when people are of the rank Senior Officer or below, a lot of them do not take the role seriously and often minge around with their equipment such as by using it for fun against random civilians or using it against each other to joke around which causes a lot of issues."

4: "Therefore, although Senior Officer's would have to undergo training to prove they can use the shotgun correctly its still very easy for them to get into the training and constantly retry it until they finally get it"

5: "Also we all know once they have passed this they don't exactly have to conduct themselves with the shotgun exactly how they did in the training as they're not under supervision all the time."

6: "I believe the incentive of progression up to the rank of Corporal where you receive a shotgun already does this"

7: "Also, if they're going to constantly minge and the only reason for temporarily putting it on hold would be to get access to the shotgun then I personally would prefer it if they didn't get one in the first place."

3: I rarely, if ever, see senior officers minging about with equipment, I see it a lot from regular officers, especially new players, however that's why I don't support giving them shotguns.

4: Having a reasonable cooling off period between application attempts will help mediate that I believe. If trainers don't treat the training like a joke then nor will the trainees.

5: The same can be said for TFU, however Senior Officers, once they've passed the TFU training are often some of the only TFU officers available, and usually the highest rank on-duty when the PD is small.

6: I'd want shotgun training to be a prerequisite for Corporal, the same way that taser training is a prerequisite for SO. Now, the issue is, Corporal is essentially a junior supervisor. They have the responsibilities of writing observation reports, and essentially acting as the 'next best thing' when a citizen asks for a supervisor and one isn't available. Not everyone wants to be a junior supervisor. I was a supervisor for I think over a year, several years ago, as well as an academy command team Lieutenant for a good while, and I ended up getting really burned out and disillusioned with it all because of a variety of factors. I don't think that officers who don't want to be a supervisor should be denied access to something as simple as a shotgun to defend themselves, especially when officers of the same rank can apply for TFU and get equipment that far surpasses it.

7: I think you're missing the point entirely here. Access to the shotgun is doubtless going to be a carrot for new players to want to rank up to senior officer, as well as take the job more seriously, but as I said before, Corporal is essentially a junior supervisor. Not everyone wants to be a supervisor, maybe they just want adequate tools to do their job, and not have it locked behind a rank that they don't want, because everyone who already has the shotgun thinks that every senior officer is a fucking retard, and can't be trusted with it, despite the fact that they made it to SO, which requires passing the application, as well as having multiple good observation reports.

No comment.

Contribute something, please?

Just get corporal brainlet

Corporal is a supervisor's rank, not everyone wants to be a supervisor, maybe they just want the right tools to do their job.

TLDR:

Not every SO is a fucktard, in fact, most aren't, and with the right application and training sessions, the competent can be singled out and trusted with a shotgun. I fail to see why Senior Officers can be trusted with TFU gear, provided they pass a test and undergo some training, but a shotgun in the back of their patrol car is far too dangerous. Making the shotgun training a prerequisite for a TFU application would also help weed out the shit TFU applicants.

 

[Ophelia]

 

[Dom_]

1: How is it absurd? I know cops who've been on for six years who I wouldn't trust with a tablespoon and new cops who've proven their competency almost immediately.

2: Additionally, I think having officers go through an actual shotgun-specific application and training session will reduce the chance of misuse.



3: I rarely, if ever, see senior officers minging about with equipment, I see it a lot from regular officers, especially new players, however that's why I don't support giving them shotguns.

4: Having a reasonable cooling off period between application attempts will help mediate that I believe. If trainers don't treat the training like a joke then nor will the trainees.

5: The same can be said for TFU, however Senior Officers, once they've passed the TFU training are often some of the only TFU officers available, and usually the highest rank on-duty when the PD is small.

6: I'd want shotgun training to be a prerequisite for Corporal, the same way that taser training is a prerequisite for SO. Now, the issue is, Corporal is essentially a junior supervisor. They have the responsibilities of writing observation reports, and essentially acting as the 'next best thing' when a citizen asks for a supervisor and one isn't available. Not everyone wants to be a junior supervisor. I was a supervisor for I think over a year, several years ago, as well as an academy command team Lieutenant for a good while, and I ended up getting really burned out and disillusioned with it all because of a variety of factors. I don't think that officers who don't want to be a supervisor should be denied access to something as simple as a shotgun to defend themselves, especially when officers of the same rank can apply for TFU and get equipment that far surpasses it.

7: I think you're missing the point entirely here. Access to the shotgun is doubtless going to be a carrot for new players to want to rank up to senior officer, as well as take the job more seriously, but as I said before, Corporal is essentially a junior supervisor. Not everyone wants to be a supervisor, maybe they just want adequate tools to do their job, and not have it locked behind a rank that they don't want, because everyone who already has the shotgun thinks that every senior officer is a fucking retard, and can't be trusted with it, despite the fact that they made it to SO, which requires passing the application, as well as having multiple good observation reports.



Contribute something, please?



Corporal is a supervisor's rank, not everyone wants to be a supervisor, maybe they just want the right tools to do their job.

TLDR:

Not every SO is a fucktard, in fact, most aren't, and with the right application and training sessions, the competent can be singled out and trusted with a shotgun. I fail to see why Senior Officers can be trusted with TFU gear, provided they pass a test and undergo some training, but a shotgun in the back of their patrol car is far too dangerous. Making the shotgun training a prerequisite for a TFU application would also help weed out the shit TFU applicants.

Firstly, Corporal isn't a supervisor rank, all they can do is pull out the best gun in the game (Remington) and do ORs (only 2 a month required). Now I chose not to comment due to all of my previous crying and my expressions of hatred towards the Remington shotgun so it would simply look like I was crying more, but you have forced my hand Mr Allen. The Remington shotgun is the easiest and most effective gun against civilians in this game, it kills in 1-2 shots at medium range and does significant damage for a shotgun at long range. This is a Shotgun sniper. Now giving this to every officer and their dog pretty much would destroy all balance and all you'll hear are cries of nerfing the Remington once again as let's face it, it is fucking insane.

I would not be opposed to Seniors having a broader pistol selection, but whenever I see a shotgun it's always lights out, I'd prefer some chance of surviving while playing as a crim still pls.

I think it's also good to note that although a large portion of the server are cop mains, there are equally, if not more crim players around too. Now if suggestions like this keep getting accepted, it simply won't be enjoyable to play as a crim anymore and therefore server may lose players/activity, cops will simply be doing traffic stops because no one wants to raid anymore, and so on. There are plenty more negatives that could arise from an update like this being implemented, I just don't think you understand from the crims side.

However I do understand your call for this suggestion, however, I think it would just throw shit out of balance and cause crims to stop raiding, I already get infuriated enough when 1 tapped by the Remington, I wouldn't like to make it possible for every singe cop to do the same. (and yes I prefer fighting TFU than Remi cops)

 

[Acerius]

I understand the premise behind the suggestion especially in light of the Taser Whitelist, however there were specific and far more nuanced reasons for the re-introduction of the Taser Whitelist. If anything I personally believe the Remmington should have a greater barrier to entry as per points raised by @Dom_ and @Harrison Turner - although I see no need to explore changes to the Remmington at this current time.

I take and appreciate the point that there are plenty of Senior Officers who would be more than capable of utilising a Remmington effectively and within the bounds of policy but the strongest and most obvious counter-argument to that is; why are they not Corporal? If it is simply because they do not want to commit to giving a minimum of 1 hour (in reality probably even less than that as an absolute minimum) per month to give constructive feedback to their fellow colleagues in the form of two Observation Reports then in reality I do not care for them and will not be pandering to them in any way, shape or form.