Rule Discussion - 2.1/4.2/4.3

[Clarky]

There's been an instance where a bank raid is occurring and medics/FFs have been using their vehicle to block off a street & intersection to deter the criminals from heading in that direction due to the blockage, making it more tedious for the criminal to escape the scene of the crime they just committed after killing the responding officers.
The thing to add on is once the road is blocked, the medic/ff would then move away from the vehicle in order to preserve their life.

This leads me to ask the question as there has been some controversy around this;

Should Paramedics & Firefighters be allowed to use their vehicle to block off a road?

I'll leave my opinion in a reply to this thread.

 

[Clarky]

Absolutely not.
It is not realistic at all to see an ambulance and huge fire truck blocking off sections of the city in order to help the PLPD, they are not RTU officers and should not be misusing their supplied vehicle for such a purpose, it's just unrealistic shortly put. The scene is yet to even be cleared in the first place and you should not be putting yourself in the line of fire, they should instead be on standby waiting for the "all clear" call and giving callouts whether necessary, not getting themselves partially involved as this can drastically change the outcome of a situation.

 

[Jake_]

If medics or FFs are going out of their way to block in crims after all cops are dead then it should be under 3.4. They would 100% know that the crims are armed with some kind of weapon and its just completely out of what they are meant to do as a job

 

[proctologist]

What if a police man told them to block the road with their vehicle? If they didn't comply with that order then they would be breaking the law!!!!!!

 

[Max]

I was present at the situation in question as a TFO and when the firefighter asked on his radio should he block the road I said no and to not put his life in unnecessary danger. Don't think he heard me because when I went over intersection he had blocked the road with his fire truck and I seen the medics had blocked another road by uncle cos with 2 ambulances too.
I didn't say anything and just continued about my business but I do believe it is;

1) unrealistic for firefighters and medics to involve themselves in an active bank robbery
2) putting their lives in unnecessary danger (3.4)
3) just doing something officers and particularly RTO's should be doing anyway

If I was a bank robber and seen this I would not hesitate to shoot the people responsible

 

[Clarky]

Just want to add that people have been punished for doing this before:

Since I am being told otherwise is why this thread was created.

 

[Exnem]

I haven't seen firefighters in the real world use their issued equipment to get in the way of heavily armed and hazardous criminals.

Though for the sake of logic, if using real world logic that is. No sane fire department would use expensive trucks for a job it wasn't designed for. (e.g; Produce a roadblock that would either lead to the damage of the truck from a vehicle accident or shooting, and/or a major risk to theirs and their colleagues lives. Since placing a roadblock in the way of armed criminals willing to shoot is just going to paint a target on the nearest firefighters that weren't even involved in the creation of the roadblock.)

No sane fire department would use expensive trucks for a job it wasn't designed for. (e.g; Produce a roadblock that would either lead to the damage of the truck from a vehicle accident or shooting,

The exception to this is of course pre-existing vehicle accidents on motorways/highways, where placing the truck at a fend-off angle would reduce the impact of a secondary vehicle accident, which would be quite reasonable as it would effectively become a shield for people on the ground behind the truck.

Another thing to note is that placing their vehicle in such a position as you said, would in no way assist them in the defined execution of their duties as each job's respective rule defines (being a firefighter/medic), and it would also not be proportionate or justifiable either (as per law 4.3). As a result, they break law 12.4, 4.3, 4.4, 11.1 (the property in question being the intersection, which is being blocked, restricting public access to a public road). And because they have no justifiable reason to be in such a position for a prolonged period of time, can also be considered loitering, law 11.8.
All of this amounts to a violation of rule 4.1 (in addition to 2.1). In the firefighters' case, it's also a violation of rule 4.3 as the emergency they are handling is not in the nature of a medical or fire emergency, as underlined within 4.3.

All of this can of course be avoided if they just park up on the side of the road and offer medical assistance to anyone who passes by or needs it, provided they remain a sufficient and reasonable distance away from the threat.

 

[Ellie]

Okay first of all; CONTEXT MATTERS

The medics and Firefighter blocked off intersection to help out the police during the bank robbery because that's the only thing they could do. They did not risk their lives because they didn't stay in the cars like idiots, they parked their cars and went inside hospital and didn't put their life at risk. In normal cases there would be more officers on duty that could set a real roadblock, but in this situation all officers were needed at bank and there was no one to set up a proper roadblock. If other government employees can do something to help out PLPD why wouldn't they? During the robbery only 3 police officers here on duty. Not all bank robberies will be like this.

And talking about realism, then bank robberies shouldn't be happening in the middle of the night? With 6 crims and 3 cops, robbers leaving bank to kill everyone they see in the whole city on the bank side just because.

The Firefighter was helping and was called for medical emergency due to officers and people that got shot because now Firefighters can actually help and do CPR, hence the rules changed with the new EMS update.

Two mods, one admin and one senior admin talked about this in adminchat and said it was okay and didn't break any rules because the ban that you linked and talked about was NOT the same, that was about an active pursuit with a car on the highway that was known to be armed, not just blocking the road and leave the vehicle.
They had the options to find the Firefighter to tell him to move the car, they could have gone down to beach and to PPass to slums, they could have ran to farm over park. Intersection was not the only exit.

Thanks to the Paramedics and Firefighters job they could keep TFU alive long enough to get revived and catch all robbers.

 

[It's ANGRY MUFFIN time!!!]

I think they should be able to do that as even in real life regular citizens have helped cops in some cases to block the road!

In the case above a civilian heavy equipment operator blocked the kill dozer and help to bring the situation to an end, he risked his life as the guy in the kill dozer had several guns!

This case is a bit diffrent as the cops commandeered a money transfering armored car to help them in rescuing wounded in a middle of a bank robbery.

Cops should get all the help they need logically

 

[Bnjemann]

I think they should be able to do that as even in real life regular citizens have helped cops in some cases to block the road!

In the case above a civilian heavy equipment operator blocked the kill dozer and help to bring the situation to an end, he risked his life as the guy in the kill dozer had several guns!

This case is a bit diffrent as the cops commandeered a money transfering armored car to help them in rescuing wounded in a middle of a bank robbery.

Cops should get all the help they need logically

What you need to take into account is that these members of the public and non police emergency service personnel put their own lives at risk to do these actions because this is the real world and stopping injustice is the sworn duty of every citizen within their nation. Within PERP? Not so much as it ruins gameplay. These are also incredibly rare instances. Comparing a PERP shootout to the Killdozer incident is also a moot comparison, since this was a literal rampage where government infrastructure was targeted, resulting in this last resort measure. The closest thing to a killdozer rampage you have on PERP is roadcrew workers and firemen evading cops in their heavy vehicles which can be quickly thwarted with a few shots from an M16 anyways.

In the case of the North Hollywood shootout, well, that’s why armoured trucks are now in police service regularly, including within PERP. The police are no longer required to commandeer non government issued vehicles.

This is entirely disallowed.

What if a police man told them to block the road with their vehicle? If they didn't comply with that order then they would be breaking the law!!!!!!

You have a right to disobey police orders if they go against the duty of care policy in a manner which would put you at severe risk of harm. You are also required to, by rules, not enter a crime scene that is not secure, thus giving you more ground to not comply with unlawful orders.

And talking about realism, then bank robberies shouldn't be happening in the middle of the night? With 6 crims and 3 cops, robbers leaving bank to kill everyone they see in the whole city on the bank side just because.

I mean, there’s still money inside the bank 24/7. The method of bank robbery portrayed on perp doesn’t require you to interact with any employees and either way the bank is walled with glass with 3 doors so there’s plenty of ways getting in even when the roof is completely disregarded.

Back onto the original topic:

What you have to remember that just like in reality, crime on PERP is oriented around not getting caught. Killing cops is reserved only when you or your party have already killed someone. Upon killing cops, realistically there’s no crime any higher you could possibly commit, in the USA, killing a police officer in the line of duty will almost always guarantee a death penalty in states which still carry capital punishment out on unrehabilitatable offenders.

Once you’ve killed a cop the bar cant really go any higher so logically theres no reason beyond personal morals to not kill an ambulance driver or firefighter who attempts to get you killed or apprehended by law enforcement to ensure you never step foot outside of a prison again except in a body bag. It’s also worth noting that the Moral code of a cop killing armed robber who killed police in defence of some stolen drugs and guns isn’t necessarily that high if they’ve valued a few batches of drugs and guns all collectively valued probably no more than the cost of a Vauxhall Corsa over human lives, including lives of those who dedicated and eventually gave their whole lives away to stop these crimes happening.

Tl;dr: You are within your right to defend your life and freedom from a violent felony sentence and anyone who stands in your way for whatever reason is an aggressor and should be shot down. Furthermore, Putting yourself in this situation as an unarmed / inadequately armed government employee who doesn’t specialise in any sort of law enforcement should not put themselves in situations which have any sort of chance of resulting in them being shot and killed. Apprehending suspects as a non-armoured, Non-firearm wielding government employee is 3.4, this includes even things like cars fleeing from traffic stops and the likes because you don’t know the limit of what that person is willing to do to not get arrested.