3.4 Opinions

Should players be able to flee for non violent crimes

  • No, keep it this way.

    Votes: 42 68.9%
  • Yes, it’s better this way.

    Votes: 10 16.4%
  • Only if no drugs are involved and no shooting is intended

    Votes: 9 14.8%

  • Total voters
    61
You can just fill in the form and never engage with it again? All you need is the right evidence, you don't even need to respond to their statement...
No

I had multiple sustained IAs which I made that involved me being forced fo elaborate or provide further evidence despite the initial form being perfectly viable.

Not to mention that this does not address how cops still don’t face rule punishment from staff when IAs are sustained.
 
No

I had multiple sustained IAs which I made that involved me being forced fo elaborate or provide further evidence despite the initial form being perfectly viable.

Not to mention that this does not address how cops still don’t face rule punishment from staff when IAs are sustained.

Most complaints really don't go that way. The majority of the time, the initial complaint is more than enough to start an investigation. Even when it's incomplete, we can often work with statements for further context.

As for rule stuff, not all policy violations are rule breaks. In fact, most aren't. If an officer is blatantly trolling and they are a sufficiently low rank, staff can and will deal with them. We have a Discord channel dedicated to processing PD punishments for warnings/blacklists/bans on officers.

Source: I am the Head of Professional Standards and open nearly every single complaint that comes in
 
Considering it takes a committee of people to exonerate an officer, it's likely that you made a complaint that simply wasn't valid?
that’s a red herring and a false cause.
You also are aware that officers very commonly are issued server punishments as well. Once they are issued that, they also receive a punishment on plpd.online...
I would like to believe that but I can only speak for myself and based on my anecdotal evidence that is only the case if the IA holds evidence of something really serious like discrimination or RDM.

This does not address how it still takes a lengthy 2 week process, usually because the F6 involves the staff just referring players to

“just make an IA, I can’t handle it.”

Which after said IA is handled, the aforementioned problem is in play or staff may outright refuse to punish the user because an IA is “enough punishment.”
You didn't try to regulate them. You tried to make them insanely fast. You're arguing that since it doesn't look like a hypercar, it's now a fun chase for the cops, whilst only 1-2 vehicles driven by RTU Sergeants can actually keep up with those cars (barely), whilst having to perfectly replicate the manouvres of the person they're chasing.

I feel like it’s up in the air what is fair or not.

Personally, I think because a patrol cruiser goes 80 MPH and RTU is even faster, then being able to go 100 MPH is totally fair game because there needs to be Counter-play by letting criminals drive faster against multiple officers but not too fast that they can’t keep eyes.

In any case, cops who oppose such a prospect can continue to enjoy trying to catch the formidable Ferrari LaFerrari because every civ will still want to buy a hyper car since almost every other car gets dusted by even the slowest Patrol cruiser in getaway driving.
 
Most complaints really don't go that way. The majority of the time, the initial complaint is more than enough to start an investigation. Even when it's incomplete, we can often work with statements for further context.

As for rule stuff, not all policy violations are rule breaks. In fact, most aren't. If an officer is blatantly trolling and they are a sufficiently low rank, staff can and will deal with them. We have a Discord channel dedicated to processing PD punishments for warnings/blacklists/bans on officers.

Source: I am the Head of Professional Standards and open nearly every single complaint that comes in
 
And if an officer is not low rank and used excessive force without trolling?
Hi that is me. I got a punishment issued shortly after I became SGT for excessive force. The system works as intended. I’m high rank and got punished accordingly.

Source: literally me and my PLPD profile. I’ll be more then happy to show said punishment I received
 
that’s a red herring and a false cause.
I've just explained it takes a committee of people.

So to explain this further: If the complainant or the defendant are unhappy with the decision, it can be disputed and sent for a "revote", if deemed valid by PSD, where another group of people will vote on it, who previously did not vote.

The only time a complaint can be exonerated, even though a policy or law violation occured is when policy 10.4 of the complaint committee is invoked. Which for those who are unaware: CC Members can choose to exonerate a complaint on the basis that a rule violation occured (such as 3.4), which impacted the Officer's decision making.

Complaint Committee members are NOT allowed to vote Exonerated if they believe a law or policy violation occured.

As for no punishments being issued towards officers, here's the query string to search for "as an officer" just for warnings in SCAMBans: https://bans.perpheads.com/warnings?reason=as an officer

The only red herring in this situation is your statement.

Source: I'm part of CC for a decent amount of time

2 week process
Unlike regular reports, there's A LOT more to cover in these types of reports. IA complaints should typically not take longer than 1 week, but it depends entirely on when it's completed (from thereon it can take some time before a CC Meeting). An officer can be suspended for the time being if the offense is deemed bad enough to warrant it.

It's also a 2 week process, because unlike a ban, once you are punished in the PD you can loose potentially a year (or more) of work and effort, permanently.

Source: I am an IA Investigator

“enough punishment.”
I think you don't understand the perspective of someone who prefers to play cop: Anything higher than a Reprimand will at the very least stunt your progression in the PD for the minimum amount of 30 days (Imagine you getting a ban from assault rifles for a 30-90 days as Civilian). A demotion is downright shameful to these players.

Additionally, we really don't get all that many reports on officers as one might think (Except the classic: "I'm being falsely arrested"). I rarely deal with even one per day. Officers simply get into far less situations where a lot of the rules can be violated.

And even when we do get those reports regardless of @Collier saying it's mainly for "blatantly trolling", it's still handed out for other rule violations such as 3.4 and so on. In fact we've got specific instructions TO NOT dismiss reports against officers and TO NOT directly send people to IA.

Source: My record. There's actually 2 of them.

Personally, I think because a patrol cruiser goes 80 MPH and RTU is even faster, then being able to go 100 MPH is totally fair game because there needs to be Counter-play by letting criminals drive faster against multiple officers but not too fast that they can’t keep eyes.
Understandable, though I have a different perspective from being a cop: Yes those pursuits can be fun and I am not denying that. However they stop being fun when it's over every tiny little thing as then PD resources dillute down and once again the "multiple officers" become 1 RTU and 2 Officers who clearly don't know where they currently are. Whilst that's going on there's 2 shootouts that you also need to respond to.

It's very hard to balance this without overpowering the PD or underpowering the Civilians.



I'm tired of trying to explain these things and will likely stop responding to this thread as it just appears you're looking to debate someone over something that has been explained. Our stance (the staff team) is clear and it's clear the majority of the votes agree with our stance.

At this point it seems like I'm not being debated (which I don't want to do to begin with), instead just being rage-baited.
 
If every cop is using gun-point to stop perps that means nobody is enforcing excessive force or nobody is reporting it, I have no clue which is occurring there. I hardly ever see cops using the taser which tells me it's either really hard to use or buggy, I bet if the tasers were more reliable and every cop had one it would solve your issue.
 
If every cop is using gun-point to stop perps that means nobody is enforcing excessive force or nobody is reporting it, I have no clue which is occurring there. I hardly ever see cops using the taser which tells me it's either really hard to use or buggy, I bet if the tasers were more reliable and every cop had one it would solve your issue.
I have not seen IAs relating to an officer using gunpoint as excessive force in ages...
 
I've just explained it takes a committee of people.

So to explain this further: If the complainant or the defendant are unhappy with the decision, it can be disputed and sent for a "revote", if deemed valid by PSD, where another group of people will vote on it, who previously did not vote.

The only time a complaint can be exonerated, even though a policy or law violation occured is when policy 10.4 of the complaint committee is invoked. Which for those who are unaware: CC Members can choose to exonerate a complaint on the basis that a rule violation occured (such as 3.4), which impacted the Officer's decision making.

Complaint Committee members are NOT allowed to vote Exonerated if they believe a law or policy violation occured.

As for no punishments being issued towards officers, here's the query string to search for "as an officer" just for warnings in SCAMBans: https://bans.perpheads.com/warnings?reason=as an officer

The only red herring in this situation is your statement.

Source: I'm part of CC for a decent amount of time
my claim was that there is not enough punishment from staff when an officer uses unjustifiable force.

Your argument was pointing to the fact a committee votes then made a wild speculation that my take is due to
“it's likely that you made a complaint that simply wasn't valid?”

Which is a red herring because it deters the topic from discussing lack of rule enforcement against police misconduct and tries to aim it at a baseless assumption scrutinizing my success rate in IAs.

The only exception is pointing to scam bans with a filter, I think this is a totally fair point but it still falls short of addressing why it feels like staff often fail to punish rule breaks before an IA process is completed or outright refuse to.

Now incase it wasn’t obvious, the part I’m not addressing before the end where you argue I’m actually using a red herring is because I believe the majority of that whole section of your reply is a continuation of that red herring.

Bottom line is we don’t need to debate what I never even contested but we can discuss more about staff side of things because that is the real topic.
Unlike regular reports, there's A LOT more to cover in these types of reports. IA complaints should typically not take longer than 1 week, but it depends entirely on when it's completed (from thereon it can take some time before a CC Meeting). An officer can be suspended for the time being if the offense is deemed bad enough to warrant it.

It's also a 2 week process, because unlike a ban, once you are punished in the PD you can loose potentially a year (or more) of work and effort, permanently.

Source: I am an IA Investigator
Sure, I don’t think we disagree. IA policy infractions should be given due process.

I think the point that’s not clear here is that I’m arguing that someone being reported through F6 for misconducting as a cop is given qualified immunity from being banned.

Players are likely to be turned away and told to make an IA.

Even though all the reporting victim potentially could want (and i feel that they should have every right to want this as do cops when it’s the other way around) is for the alleged rule breaks at play to be investigated without needing to endure a lengthy process.

the same as if a civilian was to break rules because a ban is just as harsh as any other user off duty being held to account.
I think you don't understand the perspective of someone who prefers to play cop: Anything higher than a Reprimand will at the very least stunt your progression in the PD for the minimum amount of 30 days (Imagine you getting a ban from assault rifles for a 30-90 days as Civilian). A demotion is downright shameful to these players.

Additionally, we really don't get all that many reports on officers as one might think (Except the classic: "I'm being falsely arrested"). I rarely deal with even one per day. Officers simply get into far less situations where a lot of the rules can be violated.

And even when we do get those reports regardless of @Collier saying it's mainly for "blatantly trolling", it's still handed out for other rule violations such as 3.4 and so on. In fact we've got specific instructions TO NOT dismiss reports against officers and TO NOT directly send people to IA.

Source: My record. There's actually 2 of them.
I feel like here at this point is where we disagree. I think also the majority of people who break rules and policy would much rather face a reprimand or warning over a ban because at least one can still play the server.

as an officer, you are granted a lot of power over the player base. Essentially given the power to /jail and counter raid with an infinite arsenal at the lowest rank.

It only makes sense to be held to a higher standard than the average player and if a Officer decides to act in a way that a user believes is against rules then a F6 SHOULD be taken care of and investigated on the spot with a punishment being given in both Rule form as well as Policy form at least by the time a full IA investigation is given with respect to due process. That Officer should be accountable for their actions and if they misconduct then they face a reprimand and a rule punishment, they need to learn a lesson from that rather than being given special treatment where they only get one of the two.
Understandable, though I have a different perspective from being a cop: Yes those pursuits can be fun and I am not denying that. However they stop being fun when it's over every tiny little thing as then PD resources dillute down and once again the "multiple officers" become 1 RTU and 2 Officers who clearly don't know where they currently are. Whilst that's going on there's 2 shootouts that you also need to respond to.

It's very hard to balance this without overpowering the PD or underpowering the Civilians.
That’s fair, we do agree on that.


I'm tired of trying to explain these things and will likely stop responding to this thread as it just appears you're looking to debate someone over something that has been explained. Our stance (the staff team) is clear and it's clear the majority of the votes agree with our stance.

At this point it seems like I'm not being debated (which I don't want to do to begin with), instead just being rage-baited.
Resorting to just a basic Ad Hominen by accusing me of aiming solely to debate is a weak argument.

I guarantee I am not rage baiting. This is a server discussion, so debates are likely but the point is to discuss.

Claiming the staff sfance is so clear while it’s ironically shown that from the first reply one of your own staff did not understand something you profoundly believe is “clear,” is ironic. I find that alone to be a testimony to why it’s so clearly it’s good to discuss.

This should go without saying but Open Discussion is how people communicate and is beneficial because it can educate those who don’t know things. It can potentially also give a voice to represent those who want to change things for they believe is the better (The 26.9% / 14 votes who agree).
 
So we went from should you run from minor crime to police being excessive and basically debating on who's right and wrong. What we really should be looking at is people reporting people over the most trivial things going. I have people run from gunpoint all the time. Do I care? No. Unless they affect other people in a negative manor I don't care. Cops should really stop being so trigger happy when someone doesn't comply when we have other means of detainment.
 
So we went from should you run from minor crime to police being excessive and basically debating on who's right and wrong. What we really should be looking at is people reporting people over the most trivial things going. I have people run from gunpoint all the time. Do I care? No. Unless they affect other people in a negative manor I don't care. Cops should really stop being so trigger happy when someone doesn't comply when we have other means of detainment.
The legend has spoken.
 
So we went from should you run from minor crime to police being excessive and basically debating on who's right and wrong. What we really should be looking at is people reporting people over the most trivial things going. I have people run from gunpoint all the time. Do I care? No. Unless they affect other people in a negative manor I don't care. Cops should really stop being so trigger happy when someone doesn't comply when we have other means of detainment.
9/10 Officers have a taser and you rarely see it being used other than minging..

back in the day tasering someone with a gun was funny, where did that time go?
 
9/10 Officers have a taser and you rarely see it being used other than minging..

back in the day tasering someone with a gun was funny, where did that time go?
Taser is hardly ever any more effective than the baton. With it being one shot before needing to be reloaded, the glitchy reload that sometimes just doesn't work, and the long-standing bug where it sometimes prevents you from switching away from it properly, especially when swapping to keys, it's just not worth using in a majority of cases. If you're the only officer there, you need to have lethal cover first. The only time I ever see a taser used effectively is when someone is standing still and refusing to surrender, or otherwise ignoring gunpoint but not actively fleeing. There it works extraordinarily well, and I see it used in that role often, but it's got little utility otherwise, considering the baton is superior when chasing fleeing suspects. If melee weapons couldn't be used when sprinting it would likely see some kind of renaissance, but that would make foot pursuits a lot more difficult to resolve, so please don't do that.
 
Ye part of that is most ppl going GeT mE a SuPeRvIsOr like a complete spanner because something small happens its like you shot the queen JFK and Arch duke france ferdinand in one sitting
9/10 Officers have a taser and you rarely see it being used other than minging..

back in the day tasering someone with a gun was funny, where did that time go?
 
Curious what others think about fleeing under gunpoint and in the specific case of an exception for being wanted for non violent crimes.
Evading under gunpoint and ANY point is stupid and retarded and should NEVER be allowed. I sometimes find myself annoyed over people evading over minor crimes, but it depends on the crime, SOME crimes I could agree on.
 
Taser is hardly ever any more effective than the baton. With it being one shot before needing to be reloaded, the glitchy reload that sometimes just doesn't work, and the long-standing bug where it sometimes prevents you from switching away from it properly, especially when swapping to keys, it's just not worth using in a majority of cases. If you're the only officer there, you need to have lethal cover first. The only time I ever see a taser used effectively is when someone is standing still and refusing to surrender, or otherwise ignoring gunpoint but not actively fleeing. There it works extraordinarily well, and I see it used in that role often, but it's got little utility otherwise, considering the baton is superior when chasing fleeing suspects. If melee weapons couldn't be used when sprinting it would likely see some kind of renaissance, but that would make foot pursuits a lot more difficult to resolve, so please don't do that.
I generally don't use taser if I'm alone, unless it's somebody I know to not randomly pull a firearm, ESPECIALLY not with new players. BECAUSE of that bug etc and that it's only 1 prong each etc.
 
So we went from should you run from minor crime to police being excessive and basically debating on who's right and wrong. What we really should be looking at is people reporting people over the most trivial things going. I have people run from gunpoint all the time. Do I care? No. Unless they affect other people in a negative manor I don't care. Cops should really stop being so trigger happy when someone doesn't comply when we have other means of detainment.

I agree! Positive mental attitude and not expecting everyone to conform to exactly what you want them to do goes a long way.
 
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