28-01-2016 Weapon update

[JC Denton]

(mobile) @StephenPuffs just set the v_model fov to what it was before so it's similar to what the m4 is. Then the iron sights would be usuable/realistic.

Also the bent over animation is Valve's from HL2DM

 

[Mxdium]

Yes! Now we can learn spray patterns! Let the games begin!
probably won't even come online to check it out rip my perp life.

 

[LEWIS 088]

Lovely update, although it's really weird pulling out a bat and shrinking 60cm lol

Loving the shooting range, already fired like 600 pistol rounds at it haha

 

[Krzeszny]

Really nice update, but I'm worried that the OP-ness of the Barret M82 in CQB is still the same. Even at medium ranges. That's because it seems like the biggest issue with weapon realism.

First of all, it's way too easy to aim it, while in reality it's heavy as funk - it weighs a whopping 13.5 kg (29.7 lb)! Now imagine that the famous M249 LMG weighs 10kg loaded, and AK-47 which is even slightly too heavy for CQB - 3.47 kg (7.7 lb).
And that is why we have such things as SMGs and shotgun - they're not cheap rifle substitutions like in CS. They're made to be used in CQB because of their weight and size. Which is another reason gunmen don't run around with M82s... even rich gunmen. Not to mention how impractical it would be. While in game it's just as good as a shotgun if someone knows how to quick-scope. And imagine it without a scope...

Secondly, quick-scoping itself. PHRP isn't an FPS game and probably shouldn't be like one. I know we're limited by the engine and stuff, but scoped rifles are just badly implemented and the shootouts aren't as realistic as I would imagine them on a serious RP server. Too many assault rifles, criminals driving cops over in supersports cars (which I hate the most of it all) and too balanced S.W.A.T.

Decently-implemented scoped rifles do exist - for example in Insurgency. But that's almost impossible to have in Gmod.

 

[StephenPuffs]

PHRP isn't an FPS game and probably shouldn't be like one.

A couple sentences later...

Decently-implemented scoped rifles do exist - for example in Insurgency.

Do you not notice your own inconsistency on what is good and what it is that you think it should be? Last I checked Insurgency even had FPS as the #1 tag on Steam.

So if you're going to say it's so great, perhaps you shouldn't first preface it by saying PH shouldn't be like an FPS. But that said, having never played the game I can not say for certain, however from watching a couple videos, it would seem to me that the only difference is that you don't see down the scope immediately and that only the part of the screen with the scope is zoomed. As for the accuracy of shooting, it seemed to be pretty wild, and while that works for an FPS like that, here in PH you have to pay for each and every bullet you shoot, so they should be worth your while to shoot not just take wild shots.

Besides all that though, I would suggest you actually try it out, you want to say it's simple to quickscope, and while yes it may be possible, it's simply another rifle with a scope on top, so if you want to complain about it, then you shouldn't be saying

Really nice update

as then all weapons should suffer the same thing of no quicksighting ever. So to me it seems you're putting your foot in your mouth without even trying or testing anything yourself, just like was done with you complaining about Business Street / Harbour Lane intersection when V3 was released. So answer me this... Is this another one of your "social experiments" to see if the community blindly accepts what I work on without any critiques?

Then lastly why even mention the weights of the various guns? To show you know these things because you can? They accomplish nothing as you don't say anything about it other than being "impractical", so if you have some better ideas as to how to improve again, we have an ideas section of the forums which you're more than familiar with so post those there. While I don't disagree using an M82 in CQC is impractical I see nothing but you complaining about it and offering no useful feedback other than saying how it is. Honestly I never know how you think it's useful to whine and say nothing of use every time.

 

[Krzeszny]

Honestly, I can't even voice my opinion these days, because being honest is perceived as dumb. Or I just have my hate fanclub... hateclub?

If I say that I don't like an update, it's bad. If I say I don't like an update AND post criticism, it's even worse. If I say I LIKE an update and post some criticism, it's bad... but that's not the case here. I said I liked the update and commented on the fact that I was worried quickscoping with M82 was still a thing (and no, I haven't tested it and I still don't know if it is, and I don't even think I have ammo for it to test it on the firing range - I've used to spend almost all of my time RPing a cop).

I was expecting one of 2 answers - either that quickscoping in CQC still exists or that it has been changed; not another ripost like all I'm doing is bi***ing about something. Because I'm not. And what I've said isn't even worth an argument, won't you agree?

But I can't agree with you saying that all I'm doing is complaining. Not all criticism is the same as complaining. I stated what I thought should be changed, then said that there is a game that does it better, and then even added that it's probably impossible in Garry's Mod (I didn't say that it has to be changed, or that I hated it, now have I?). It's not worth an argument for one reason - I've just stated my opinion! Furthermore, I don't want to argue all the time about everything I say, same as I don't argue about what someone posts (unless that someone disagrees with my previous post and I think he isn't right).
Again, I haven't said that I hated the aiming system, or how bad it was. I haven't even said that I didn't like it (although it's obvious).

Do you not notice your own inconsistency on what is good and what it is that you think it should be? Last I checked Insurgency even had FPS as the #1 tag on Steam.

And have you noticed that there are different FPSes, different kinds of all genres? A genre doesn't define a computer game or anything else. Definitions are overrated.

So if you're going to say it's so great, perhaps you shouldn't first preface it by saying PH shouldn't be like an FPS.

I didn't even preface it... I said that it's great in the beginning and then added that PH/PHRP shouldn't be like an FPS (so I did the opposite thing to prefacing).

The FPS-ness I can see is that weapons' weight doesn't matter (I've yet to see a game which simulates it by adjusting mouse sensitivity to each weapon), which is especially important with the M82 - you can move it around as fast as a pistol. That's basically the same problem Insurgency has with LMGs - they're too good at all ranges, and even better than assault rifles, despite their weight, and, as you've mentioned, weapons in Insurgency are generally too accurate in full-auto and the recoil is too low, but that doesn't concern PH anymore.

Do you not notice your own inconsistency on what is good and what it is that you think it should be?
(...)
But that said, having never played the game I can not say for certain, however from watching a couple videos, it would seem to me that the only difference is that you don't see down the scope immediately and that only the part of the screen with the scope is zoomed.

The only difference?! That's a whole world of difference! I've yet to see a game which does aiming more realistically than Insurgency. Also, do you now notice your inconsistency?

Decently-implemented scoped rifles do exist - for example in Insurgency.

I mentioned Insurgency as a good example of how realistic aiming with scoped weapons can get, and for nothing else. So there's been no point of you bringing up any other arguments against the said game's realism.

Besides all that though, I would suggest you actually try it out, you want to say it's simple to quickscope, and while yes it may be possible, it's simply another rifle with a scope on top, so if you want to complain about it, then you shouldn't be saying [Really nice update] as then all weapons should suffer the same thing of no quicksighting ever.

It's not that simple. M82 weighs 13kg. The second heaviest weapon we have, I believe, is M24, which weighs just above 5kg. Even the SR-25 weighs below 5kg. So those rifles could have quickscoping nerfed, but not as much as M82. Weapons without scopes are fine, because in reality, instead of holding your weapon on your hip when not aiming (PHRP/FA:S or CS), you just hold the weapon lowered but in a firing stance.

Now I know that I should have asked whether quickscoping was changed in the update or not, but I assumed (probably rightfully) that it wasn't - there wasn't anything about it in the patch notes.

Lastly, I've mentioned the weights of the guns to illustrate that a weapon which weighs 13kg should not be so good for CQB (it's even hard to carry it, let alone aiming sideways) than weapons that weigh a lot less. It would even be unlikely for anyone to use a scoped weapon like that in real life. I understand that if you pre-aim it, it's effective that way, but it almost breaks the balance because S.W.A.T. only have one flashbang each, no shields, and all they can use against an organization armed with assault rifles and a Barret is their body armor... which isn't a lot. Which leads to the FPS part of PHRP - organizations aren't really scared of police raids - you join a big organization, make 36k every 40 minutes or so, buy rifles very easily and shoot the cops. Have you ever heard of a real life situation in which the police force lost a shootout with a gang? No because of the amount of officers and S.W.A.T. teams. I know, game balance and stuff, plus expensive weapons should be very good, and PH is not trying to simulate real life, but the police force isn't powerful enough for that.


So as for constructive criticism, all I can suggest right now is lowering the aiming sensitivity with the Barret, or just leaving it as it is, and/or making scoping take more time - and an important part - after clicking the right mouse button, but when not yet fully scoped, accuracy should be lower (to simulate parallax). I could make a suggestion thread out of it if I had to.
Even though it would be the best option, I can't suggest something as excessive as the aiming system from Insurgency.

Lastly, even the most expensive weapon on PHRP should be balanced. Imagine S.W.A.T. or a raider trying to enter an apartment through a doorway and someone with an M82 shooting, hiding behind the corner, shooting, hiding behind the corner or even worse - pre-aiming. What would happen in real life? The sniper would get shot once or twice (if the raiders had good reflexes) and he wouldn't be able to shoot back. Here you have health points and basically no downsides to being shot, so the sniper gets shot once or twice with a pistol, uses a bandage and keeps fighting like nothing happened (don't expect everyone to RP everything). That's why sometimes things just have to be balanced.

</wall of text>

 

[StephenPuffs]

@Krzeszny I don't know how you're expecting answers, if I copy paste your post into Notepad++ then search for question marks this is the result I get.

Hard to get answers for questions you never ask. Besides quickscoping is no different than quicksighting with other weapons, so "realistically" speaking why are those rifles any different?

Here's the difference between voicing your opinion and complaining at least to me. Complaining is wanting something to happen when you know it won't/can't, having an opinion means you are stating a personal belief and actually giving reasons as to why you feel that way. In your own post sure you mention what you may like more, but you hardly state any actual reasons why other than "it's better".

Any game as defined as an "FPS" is well... first person in view and has some sort of thing that shoots. Hence... First Person Shooter, that's not exactly overrated, that's fact.

I'm not sure how you did the opposite of prefacing when you FIRST stated that PH should not be like an FPS and then later on say it should have more things like Insurgency has, which is an FPS.

I'm not sure how holding it as you are stating makes any sense whatsoever, just because you're not aimed down a sight doesn't make a gun inaccurate, so if you're holding it shoulder level and ready to fire, your aim shouldn't be awful still.

As I said before, you hardly asked if you don't use any quesitons, don't lie.

There you go again with what I would call complaining. Of course a real situation wouldn't ever turn out that way, but giving 1 additional flashbang or even a shield does not change how those situations could turn out. The problem is always the sheer numbers and with having a gamemode which is supposed to be representative of an entire city with a maximum of 70 players, obviously the expectations of what "should happen" in any situation have to somewhat be purposely crafted that way which is why some rules/laws exist that wouldn't otherwise.

As for aim sensitivity adjustment, that may be considered at some point to give some feeling of weight but it also may just be one of those ideas that sounds good but really sucks to have. And then the idea of longer time before aiming down the scope, honestly I don't see much quick scoping ever happening as if you're in a situation where you're actively raiding someone like that with a scoped rifle, it probably won't work out in your favor. As for SWAT doing it, I still don't see it ever happen.

I hardly expect people to RP everything, but I'm not sure how pointing this out achieves anything. With the limited behavior of what we can and can not do, we have to allow certain behaviors that may be less than ideal. That said, may look into ways to achieve a better simulation of being injured however we have enough other things to do that it is not taking a high priority at this time.

 

[Krzeszny]

@StephenPuffs

Ok. I mostly agree. Again, about the FPS part - when I said "it shouldn't be like an FPS", I've had casual FPSes on my mind, like CoD for example. You know, quickscoping and stuff.

Besides quickscoping is no different than quicksighting with other weapons, so "realistically" speaking why are those rifles any different?

Depends on what you mean by quicksighting. The speed at which you can turn the weapon does differ between one that weighs 13kg and 5kg, and to some degree, the speed at which you can move the weapon to the eye level is different, but that's probably negligible.

If all games with FPS elements are FPSes, then Garry's Mod is an FPS, Minecraft is an FPS, even Portal is an FPS.

So if you're going to say it's so great, perhaps you shouldn't first preface it by saying PH shouldn't be like an FPS.

On the top of my post I wrote "Really nice update"
In the third paragraph I wrote "PHRP isn't an FPS game and probably shouldn't be like one."
You said that I prefaced "Really nice update" with the second quote. It's the opposite. "Really nice update" is in the preface, hence it prefaces the FPS part.

I'm not sure how holding it as you are stating makes any sense whatsoever, just because you're not aimed down a sight doesn't make a gun inaccurate, so if you're holding it shoulder level and ready to fire, your aim shouldn't be awful still.

I'm not sure if you're referring to hip-fire, but:
In reality, hip-fire accuracy is proportional to your hip-firing experience (and skill, and probably strength). Insurgency is almost a hip-firing simulator and other FPSes should learn from it, because it's probably impossible to simulate it without using the aiming system from Insugency.
And here I think non-simulated hip-firing accuracy should depend on 4 values - how hard it is to do it with no experience and how experienced the player is in hip-firing itself, a fraction of marksmanship level (to know how to hold the gun and such) and strength when considering the recoil.

if you're in a situation where you're actively raiding someone like that with a scoped rifle, it probably won't work out in your favor. As for SWAT doing it, I still don't see it ever happen.

As for quickscoping, it only concerns M82 users because it's the only weapon able to one-shot someone in the chest. As I've explained, the problem I see with it is that it's too overpowered when defending, not as much when attacking.
See here:
/watch?v=cBg79okGI24&feature=youtu.be&t=145
(I don't know how to link a video linked to a specific time without it becoming a media attachment)
Maybe it's not showing quickscoping but nevertheless it still shows the OP-ness. But I'm not saying that it has to be changed. Maybe it should stay like that just because the weapon is that expensive... but then again, it's an unrealistic use for it.
On a side note, it's unlikely that M82 would even fit between the fence and the wall, but it's the Source engine which is limiting realism in such instances.

I hardly expect people to RP everything, but I'm not sure how pointing this out achieves anything.

If people aren't expected to RP being shot, there should be a programmed system for it. Getting shot, healed and shooting back just as effectively doesn't just seem right for serious roleplay.
I know, it's hard to make a system for it, but I don't really like what we currently have - insta-bandaging and not important HP (we often forget that we're even injured). I have suggested in the past something to make injuries visible - red half-opaque flashing screen borders, but it seems like it was too excessive and maybe too intrusive (not IMO).

I will remember to give reasons for my opinions in the future, but an opinion doesn't have to have an explanation for it. It's just an opinion.

 

[mango]

I really like the weapon update, especially with the head glitch being fixed. However, I don't fully like the fact if you get shot in the chest a couple of times it is really OP and it almost kills you straight away. I think the weapon damage could be reduced a little as I think it is a little too over powered.

Kind Regards,
Daragh.