Action Request (Nighty , BPHMT , Nova , USNC Snip3r)

[HuskyD0G]

Your Steam Name: Simon Bendetti
Your Roleplay Name: Simon Bendetti
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:0:121982224

Player's Steam Name: Nighty , BPHMT , Nova , USNC Snip3r
Player's Roleplay Name: Unknown
Player's SteamID: STEAM_0:1:99808640 , STEAM_0:0:160695669 , STEAM_0:0:21924083 , STEAM_0:1:155953203

Why should this player be punished?: 3.4 2.5 - All 4 of them countered me and Jah Mylan during a raid on projex 2. Cops responded and we got into a fight with cops. Once we pushed outside (with cops still up the ramp and me just killing one right in front of them) they all opened fire on us. One killed my friend who was raiding with me Jah Mylan and ran away with the other person to flee since cops were there after killing us. We had shot prior so they were just sitting there staring at a shootout. They did not even attempt to counter our raid after attempting to kill us and fled completely after they killed Jah Mylan.

Evidence Link: https://streamable.com/kpxekv

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

I'm BPHMT (Axel Ent) , We planned to counter the raid, however as soon as we got shot at we opened fire as well, I am not 100% if our guys shot first or got shot at first, But as soon as my org members went down I went in to defending mode. That's why I flanked from scrapyard and shot down at the person bandaging behind the car.

Also we fled as soon as cops showed up as already a few of our members were down.

The other people would be :
Jodie White, Wyatt Joe & Chris Doen
EDIT : I`ll also tell all members involved in this scenario to react to this with their RP name so you have all the data
My steam : STEAM_0:0:160695669
Wyatt Joe's Steam : STEAM_0:0:219240483

 

[HuskyD0G]

I'm BPHMT (Axel Ent) , We planned to counter the raid, however as soon as we got shot at we opened fire as well, I am not 100% if our guys shot first or got shot at first, But as soon as my org members went down I went in to defending mode. That's why I flanked from scrapyard and shot down at the person bandaging behind the car.

Also we fled as soon as cops showed up as already a few of our members were down.

The other people would be :
Jodie White, Wyatt Joe & Chris Doen
EDIT : I`ll also tell all members involved in this scenario to react to this with their RP name so you have all the data
My steam is STEAM_0:0:160695669

You realize you all were sitting at a shootout with cops right? You fired the first shot, we did not.

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

Just checked my PoV, We did indeed shoot at you boys first, Our intent was to counter, We waited till the officers were dead and then wanted to counter.
However this failed horribly.

My PoV

 

[HuskyD0G]

Just checked my PoV, We did indeed shoot at you boys first, Our intent was to counter, We waited till the officers were dead and then wanted to counter.
However this failed horribly.

My PoV

Yes but the standing reason here is cops were still there up the ramp, you were countering a cop counter that was clearly ongoing and even saw us killing cops.

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

As far as I could find within the lines of the rules it says nothing about whether cops respond or not.
I can see 3.4 as claim for maybe losing our freedom however I was never arrested in the scenario, Not even detained.

Also We saw you kill the officers yes, We did not see any other officers on harbour lane, If more of my people were still alive we would've pushed down to collect your guns and then probably figured out there was more cops, but I feel like that is an "If" moment as that did not happen.

 

[Valentine]

@unscsnip3r @NotAnthony32 anything you guys would like to add before the verdict? I'll contact Nighty regarding to this as well so that it's fair

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

@Valentine I do have a question about the rules we got reported for though.
As we got reported for 2.5 (Excessive Negativity) and 3.4 (Putting your life at risk) I would say both of these would be an incorrect rule break claim.
As 2.5 would not apply when there is clear intent from the start to counter the raid.
In 3.4 it does state "

• Committing a violent or serious crime, such as murder, theft, arson, etc. whilst knowing that police are in direct eyeshot of the scene you wish to commit the crime at.

"
However we did not know at the time that there were more cops on the upramp so it would not hold up as it says "whilst knowing".
We also did not risk being arrested (losing freedom) in anyway shape or form cause I spoke with an officer and actually managed to get a firearm that was lost from our team back.
I see how they could claim "You were too close to the property" -- however this would not hold up in all scenarios either as we were not in any direct line of fire.
For example when people are shooting down bazaar hallway and people stand in their shops, they are not giving a warning for 3.4 even though they are in the direct vicinity, yet not in a direct line of fire.

Therefore I think both 2.5 and 3.4 would be an incorrect report.

Please tell me which rule did we break?

​

 

[Nova.]

No Ma'am.

@unscsnip3r @NotAnthony32 anything you guys would like to add before the verdict? I'll contact Nighty regarding to this as well so that it's fair

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

Now about the statement made that there were cops on the upramp, There seems to be no direct rule written against countering with cops responding.
As long as we are not aware of more cops in the area and the cops dont have any direct sight on us (which is what happened in this case)

Now 5.3 also says nothing about this situation.

 

[HuskyD0G]

The point is, you tried countering the raid, when the raid was over already and we were leaving. There was no raid to counter, you just shot us when cops were trying to kill us. Which is not only 3.4 but 2.5 since you killed Jah Mylan for no reason then Left and directly led me to die to cops because my friend was killed for no reason.

 

[ExcelentAxelent]

There is nothing said about a raid being over when the player is still in the direct vicinity (Projex area) within the rules.
I ran away after shooting your friend as cops arrived seconds after which I then realized + most of my friends that would help with the counter died already.

So the 2.5 would be directed towards me personally I assume for shooting your friend, And the 3.4 like mentioned before would not hold up as the description is clear, Also when raiding/countering a raid 3.4 & 3.6 could then always be claimed as you take a 50/50 chance of being killed therefore not valuing your own life.

Now as mentioned above we had clear intent to counter, Therefore no excessive negativity was used, I did not plan to kill you lot and just leave, However the situation did not allow me to continue any further as it would have resulted in losing my freedom/life if I did, therefore I chose under 3.4 (freedom) and 3.6 to value my life and leave the area, Return a moment later to collect the gun (Which I got permission for from an officer responding).

We could discuss the lack of clarity within the rules however at the current state and the situation there was nothing that broke the rules as far as I'm aware, However if Valentine decides differently I'd like to see how.

There may be "gentlemen rules" I am unaware about, However I also don't care if those exist cause as long as they are not written/defined within the rule page they don't hold up in an AR.

 

[HuskyD0G]

3.4 - You were risking your life over countering a non-existent raid, and jail sentence since cops had arrived. You also did not even try to go the apartment to finish the so called (raid)
2.5 - You killed someone because you wanted to, allegedly over a shitty reason that you caused yourself
It's pretty simple, the rules don't need to outline every little thing it's common sense iirc

 

[Valentine]

It is accepted by the staff and widely known on the server that you shouldn't counter-raid when there are police on the scene of a raid, it's against rule 3.4 and it can be put under the "Committing a violent or serious crime, such as murder, theft, arson, etc. whilst knowing that police are in direct eyeshot of the scene you wish to commit the crime at." section of 3.4, therefore, it isn't invalidated or anything just because it wasn't written down to its very specific detail.

I've gone ahead and confirmed this with administrator @A1L to avoid inconveniences, I acknowledge the "countering" bit and I don't think this is subject to 2.5 but this counter-raid should have been done without the cops being present on the scene, the shootout happening between the police and the assailants should have not been interfered with.

@Simon Bendetti & @Mak will be allowed to create an RR for their initial confiscated weapons seeing as the civilian involvement has affected the situation, adding additional people to shoot and account for to the raid after a rule break is present. Make sure to tag me for the refund request

Nighty & @ExcelentAxelent will be receiving a three-day ban each, while @unscsnip3r & @NotAnthony32 will both be receiving warnings, please ensure this doesn't occur again next time you're back on the server to avoid further inconveniences. Thanks to all of the parties involved for their patience and their statements