Make it so staff can punish normal officers

[Mage]

Of course they might, but isn't this an intimidating and condescending way to teach someone that they did something wrong? Especially when it typically results in a reprimand assuming what they did actually warrants for one. So if anything they feel scared to go on duty in case they make another fuck up and end up demoted or suspended. Why shouldn't staff be there to tell them what they did wrong instead? The excuse of "staff don't have time" is bullshit. At this point its just second nature to make an IA because that's the only response that staff give these days.

Trust me from experience when I was new when all fuck ups as cop were dealt on the spot by a single LT on duty back then, I got demoted twice within one day by Pusheen and didn't go on duty for another month because I didn't want to get blacklisted for breaking the laws too much.

 

[Altradir]

Then there will be more staff???????



Because a complaint takes too much fucking time. I need to upload my playsTV, shadowplay, write a story, then wait two weeks. I also hate how they go, but sometimes it's inevitable. I only make reports now if someone's an actual fucking asshole or incompitent moron. If i make an f6 and go to a roof(report takes 15 seconds to write) i can actually feel good knowing that the person i reported now knows how to *not* do it the next time. I dont want people permanently banned from something they get their fun out. The last IA i made got someone demoted.

I have to agree with you on something: there seems to be a lack staff. For example, today during many hours there wasn't a single staff on (while the server had like 40 players on).

If complaints are not efficient, then it is the PLPD duty to improve them to make them reliable, not the staff team.

Also, I updated the post you quoted, so you might want to check it.

 

[Altradir]

@Mage the thing is, what you are saying is a thing that I believe must be the PLPD improving, not with staff interference.

 

[Smeris]

If complaints are not efficient, then is thr PLPD duty to improve them to make them reliable.

It's not the complaints that are not efficient per se, it's just the unessesary overhead.

Lets say an officer searched me without any reasonable justification, he's only on the server for like a week. If staff had a say about this, i could make a report, a staff could check his warnings and playtime and could probably explain to him why it's naughty. I'd be happy, officer would probably also be happy. Staff might not even warn him and everything will be fine.
Me creating the report takes 10 seconds. The entire situation can be resolved in a few minutes.


Now, in our current system. I must make an IA. That means i would have to stop with whatever i'm doing on the server. if i do not have shadowplay or PlaysTV i need to disconnect from the server. then i need to record my demo, or find the correct one. Then upload this somewhere. Then i need t to logon to PLPD online, explain everything in detail. Fill in the date and time, communicate with IA a few times about the reaction on the officer. It takes time for IA to do this, wasted time in my opinion. Then, after a week or two Command has to review it, then make a decision. my last IA got an officer demoted.


It's unessesary overhead, and just doesn't make sense to me.

Also, I updated the post you quoted, so you might want to check it.

all answered above.

I have to agree with you on something: there seems to be a lack staff. For example, today during many hours there wasn't a single staff on (while the server had like 40 players on)

More staff wouldn't hurt i agree.

 

[Mage]

The PLPD has had the same complaint system for almost 3 years now, how much time do you want to give them to improve it? I'm not gonna make a 911 call in-game to report the officer because more often than not the supervisor is a cunt and will punish them, and I'm not gonna make a complaint because not only does it take 2 weeks to get dealt with, it typically results in them being punished. Sure maybe punishments are just a harsh way to learn from mistakes, but it shouldn't be the way it is dealt with. Sorry but over the time that I've been here there hasn't been a "explain what the cop did wrong" feature, which is why more often than not you will have to end up explaining it yourself (which makes you look pretty arrogant and/or salty as you are trying to correct someone). Which is exactly why I'm saying staff should inform these players what they have done wrong so that they can learn from that without being punished, you know they also feel a lot more welcome that way because it isn't just a "fuck you" with a punishment slapped on their record and at times even that doesn't necessarily prohibit from making the same mistake again if they simply get some text on a screen rather than a proper explanation given to them. The closest thing there is, is a comment card on plpd.online if those even exist still, but again that requires a complaint which risks the officer being punished by a reprimand in the first place, and personally is something I wouldn't want to happen for them.

 

[Altradir]

It's not the complaints that are not efficient per se, it's just the unessesary overhead.

Lets say an officer searched me without any reasonable justification, he's only on the server for like a week. If staff had a say about this, i could make a report, a staff could check his warnings and playtime and could probably explain to him why it's naughty. I'd be happy, officer would probably also be happy. Staff might not even warn him and everything will be fine.
Me creating the report takes 10 seconds. The entire situation can be resolved in a few minutes.


Now, in our current system. I must make an IA. That means i would have to stop with whatever i'm doing on the server. if i do not have shadowplay or PlaysTV i need to disconnect from the server. then i need to record my demo, or find the correct one. Then upload this somewhere. Then i need t to logon to PLPD online, explain everything in detail. Fill in the date and time, communicate with IA a few times about the reaction on the officer. It takes time for IA to do this, wasted time in my opinion. Then, after a week or two Command has to review it, then make a decision. my last IA got an officer demoted.


It's unessesary overhead, and just doesn't make sense to me.


all answered above.


More staff wouldn't hurt i agree.

Then the PLPD system should improve, or it wouldn't be used at all.

I understand what you and @Mage are saying, but I still believe that is this a IC issue, so the solution should be IC.

What are supervisors for if not to supervise their officers' actions? If the system doesn't work like you said, then it is right there that we must improve.

 

[Sam]

@Mage average handling time is just a little over 3 days. The average time between investigation ending to final outcome is 4-5 days. So not 2 weeks.... A first time offender often gets comment cards, training or a quick chat with a Commanding Officer. I suggest you update yourself on how it now works, it is not the same as 3 years ago.

We have made progress and we are currently working on a new way to deal with complaints. Officers that receive comment cards get a clear explanation of what they did wrong and what they should do instead. Even officers that receive written warnings have the chance to apologize and get it removed.

 

[Wiki]

@Mage average handling time is just a little over 3 days. The average time between investigation ending to final outcome is 4-5 days. So not 2 weeks.... A first time offender often gets comment cards, training or a quick chat with a Commanding Officer. I suggest you update yourself on how it now works, it is not the same as 3 years ago.

We have made progress and we are currently working on a new way to deal with complaints. Officers that receive comment cards get a clear explanation of what they did wrong and what they should do instead. Even officers that receive written warnings have the chance to apologize and get it removed.

Sorry, my IA took a week to get to the final report and another week for it to be sustained. Smh

 

[Sam]

Send me complaint ID, of course single complaints can take longer, but I said AVRAGE

 

[Wiki]

@Samuel 893505-F125H-18

 

[joey]

If you get a warning whilst on duty or a ban that impacts your ability to go on duty, you have to report it to PSD, doesn't need to go through IA

 

[Creepis]

overwhelming the Staff Team

Fair point because when IA wasnt a thing (or still in development) staff would be overwhelmed with reports of police entering unlawfully. Either you got to a conclusion or you had to ask for a demo file. I witnessed my fair share of those shit shows.

OT:
Let IA deal with policy breaches and/or unlawful conduct if they can't justify themselves. Officers have never been immune to the rules (4.1) so see what's best fit for the given situation.

 

[joey]

There are no rules set in place that prevent a staff member from dealing with any ranked officer if they are breaking the rules. The rule 4.1, which is probably what you're referring to, can only be used when a government official has broken one of the laws.

I was taught as a mod to never let internal affairs get in the way of your staff duties. If a police officer has broken rule 4.1 and a staff member refuses to deal with the situation, make an action request on the officer and a staff complaint on the staff member. It would also be nice if there wasn't a stigma against staff members who choose to deal with rule breakages committed by officers, it should be much more widely supported.

Just for example (@Daigestive):
An officer who is searching people for no reason whatsoever they are not acting under law 3.7, which gives them the right to search you, hence I would see it appropriate to say that they are breaking 4.1 so I do agree that staff should be able to deal with this, if they receive a warning the officer has to report it to PSD as well, which is really helpful with taking stress off of Internal Affairs and I don't understand why this doesn't receive more widespread report.

Also @Samuel it is true that most complaints I make are dealt with in a reasonable amount of time. Also @Wiki , why does it matter how long it takes to get processed? If they committed a severe and reckless act, get a supervisor to suspend them, if they can have evidence of an awful policy breakage, they can suspend them. I regularly see ARs that take longer than a week to be dealt with and the staff members don't have to go through all of the same formalities that IA has to go through, that's not even including the fact that IA doesn't even make the final decision, it's actually the complaints committee (5-6 people?) that have to do regular meetings to provide outcomes.

tl;dr:
>Staff cannot deal with MOST policy breakages (it's not a law hence not 4.1)
>Staff can deal with ALL law breakages in game and shouldn't let the fear of IA get in the way of them
>It doesn't matter if it takes a long time, if an officer has committed gross misconduct they can be suspended, the haste of it means nothing to you
>This suggestion does nothing, staff can already deal with every single officer if they break any rules/laws

 

[mango]

If you receive a warning/ban and an internal punishment it doesn’t really change anything in the PD unless your ban is over 2 months. If you get a reprimand or worse, you’ll still have to wait about the same time to apply for anything.

 

[MILKY]

just add back the whitelist so we can get rid of the annoying sweatercops that just minge and that makes me go to the kitchen to make toast

 

[Altradir]

I still think you didn't understand my point. Staff should intervene if there is a direct rule breaking. And in the past no, the staff didn't need to deal with these internal policy things because there were no policies at all (how far back are we going).

And as I have said before, law =/= PLPD policy. Law enforcement sometimes break policy IRL, making it an acceptable RP situation imo.

Also, if you read my other posts, you may also see that I consider the lack of staff a problem that maybe we should also fix.

 

[TinySlayer]

This has already been discussed to death here: https://perpheads.com/threads/ia-or-staff.35414/

Staff members should be investigating all situations where Officers are breaking the rules. The only exception to this should be 4.1 (breaking the law), which should be handed over to IA for minor infringements. For the major infringements of 4.1, the officer is likely to be breaking other rules as well, such as 2.5, so that would need to be looked at by staff.

Where the staff member feels that the officer is not breaking any rules, but may be breaking a policy, they should direct the reporter to IA.

Staff members should still do some amount of investigation on reports that are likely to go to IA and see if they are able to resolve things. If a ticket is clearly over the limit or has been stacked, they should be able to intervene. If a raid has been performed without a search warrant, they should be able to ask the Officer why.

What staff members don't need to spend time investigating is minor law violations such as officers running red lights, or Officers allegedly using excessive force in fist/gun/knife fights.

If you are aware of a situation where staff members are not investigating players who have allegedly broken the rules, or handling reports properly, please contact myself or @ayjay ツ, or make a staff complaint.