Problems and Complaints I've heard from several people

[GSOLAR]

TLDR: Not my opinion, No logs for non staff and no admin powers when playing as civ.

First and foremost I’d like to say that I’m making this without intention to personally attack and/or offend anyone. I know this post will likely get deleted, possibly get me banned and won’t be making any friends for me. But I just want to get clarification and let people know of what’s going on for not just a single mind. More people complain about this and have so called ‘suspicions’. I’d like to add that this isn’t me saying I have suspicions nor making the accusations, I’m just providing examples and things that people don’t see as right and explaining why.

I’ll be using an AR made on Jamie to give an example, link to the AR is at the bottom of the post. I’m not disputing the outcome or attacking Jamie personally like I stated in the first sentence.
So for the peeps that will get offended or anything. Leave the senseless comments off of this post please. And for the readers as I’m writing this I have no clue how big the text will be so sorry in advance, I’ll add an TLDR at the top after I finished writing.

Ill be stating my points with numbers attached. Do note that some points could be seen as slander. Its not me personally saying this. Just stating the complaints from several people.

1. Non Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to get screenshots of logs. (maybe in some cases only small things from logs that don’t matter)
This point can be paired with the fact that some people feel like certain players are being favoured by staff members. Using Jamies AR as an example. Instead of just explaining his side of the story. Saying he was in a moment of ‘stress’ and someone ran into the place he was raiding hence he shot him. He’s been given a SS of the following logs:

- His Kills (which is kindoff ok imo)
- His LOOC (also kindoff ok)
- The AR makes OOC (its OOC I understand but still not his personal chat)
- Org chat from another org (which is totally not OK)

The noteworthy things here are the fact that a staff member/members already looked into this and provided the things needed to make his response. If staff condone gifting log screenshots to make a point related to the AR. Then why in the hell are they adding the kills and even worse legit search back in time to specific thing being said to kindoff proof his ‘slander’ accusation? Not to forget all those things were said in the Org chat.
Seeing how people get blacklisted (myself included) or even banned for slander. It’s strange seeing Jamie kind of accusing Ryan of slander. Not to say making a sneaky accusation of possible Metagaming with the provided SS of the orgchat logs. Which in itself could be considered committing slander. Ryan in this case probably needed his steam to help him make the AR. Just as Jamie probably spoke on steam about his reply with Staff members and making them get the log screenshots. “I’ll let you make your own assumptions here.”

2. Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to access logs or any admins powers if they are playing as civ/criminal.
This point is the one where slander will come to mind. Please read it with an open mind and understand that I’ve heard many complaints about this over the last few months played. Unlike using Jamie’s AR as an example. I won’t be stating specific names here for obvious reasons.

The problem being that people feel like Staff members use their powers to scout out where the desired orgs to raid are located. I personally have had a situation where I thought the same thing. I believe I got blacklisted for it back in the day when I named it in OOC (naming in OOC might not be the best thing to do I agree).
How do the staff possible do this? I believe there are two ways to do this. It could be either by noclipping into bases, which they do to check if the bases defenses aren’t breaking the rules. I’m not sure but I’ve heard that the staff noclipping into base even when invisible is visible in everyones demos (even when I accused staff back in the day of doing this, I’ve never checked my demos for it). So if you’ve suspected this happening check your demo to be sure. But the noclipping into bases on its own isn’t a problem.
I’ve heard several cases, I don’t recall from who. But that they suspected or even seen a staff member in their base only to get raided mere minutes after by that staff members org. I’d like to say that it could be possible that the staff member didn’t join or tell their org anything of where the base is located. But people have assumed that they would just steam message their org mates and tell them the location. This assumption stems from the fact that typing in org chat or whatever is visible in the logs, and would result in getting caught. Just look at point 1 where org chat logs are being shown. This assumption would mean that theres heavy metagaming involved.

I ONCE AGAIN LIKE TO ADD THAT IM STATING THE STORIES/ASSUMPTIONS I’VE BEEN TOLD. I’M NOT ACCUSING ANYONE.

The other way Staff members could use their powers to scout out bases. Which one is legit untraceable (I believe) is by checking logs. Just to refer to Jamies AR post once again. They can clearly see org chat and if I’m correct they can even see logs of peeps eating food and exactly where they did that. This one wouldn’t even require the assumed Metagaming from the explained method above. Since there are several orgs with staff members in there. A staff member could just look up names of the desired org they want to raid. See the location and just tell their org: “Let’s go scout at slums.” This way its possible to actually raid a specific target and make it look like it’s normal.
I’ve heard stories of specific players from specific orgs. Being targeted/raided within minutes of entering the property, by the orgs with staff members, when nobody even saw them enter the property. I personally must admit that I’ve had assumptions about this one before. Mostly came out of rage of being raided again and again. Same as saying someone is a hacker.
But even though my personal assumptions held no meaning at the time. The assumption made by other persons might well be grounded. Why do their assumptions hold value? Possibly because the accused organisations/members came in full force, guns blazing and bombing doors even at places where a specific member of a targeted org was only helping a new player in a base.
The question I’ve heard the so called ‘victims’ state again and again was something along these lines: “why would (org name) specifically raid this place with the full force, is it because they know I’m inside? If so how? Cuz they normally don’t go full force on a solo new player..”

I think y’all get the idea. By finding a way to make it impossible to play as both staff and civ, this includes making it impossible to check logs and noclipping if you want to base/raid etc. Or make it so that staff members aren’t allowed to be in orgs (which is kindoff not fair/fun I agree). This could fix the assumptions/accusations/slander people make. A possible way is to add like a Staff job in CH where staff have to get on duty first before they can access anything. But being on duty would mean they can’t access the org chat or something. This would ofcourse not fix metagaming, if that would even be happening in the first place.

I ONCE AGAIN LIKE TO ADD THAT IM STATING THE STORIES/ASSUMPTIONS I’VE BEEN TOLD. I’M NOT ACCUSING ANYONE NOR MAKING THE ASSUMPTIONS.

I had more points but since I'm writing this I think I've stated enough to start a discussion. I'd appreciate if this post doesn't get deleted. And I would like to not get banned (not saying anyone would ban me for this, but you never know how people react).

Link to AR on Jamie:

Action Request (Jamie)

Your Steam Name: Rodney Your Roleplay Name: Ryan Valetti Your SteamID: STEAM_0:0:42747555 Player's Steam Name: Jamie Player's Roleplay Name: Jack Bushross Player's SteamID: STEAM_0:1:58009824 Why should this player be punished?: I am making this on Behalf of my friend Jack Backe as he doesn't...

perpheads.com

 

[Hayden]

Staff members no clipping into bases prior to raiding them is a massive abuse of power and will likely result in a demotion or staff warning dependent on severity and the overall circumstances. This has happened in the past, and we have been incredibly strict with the punishments. If you witness this happening, you should definitely make a staff complaint.

 

[GSOLAR]

Staff members no clipping into bases prior to raiding them is a massive abuse of power and will likely result in a demotion or staff warning dependent on severity and the overall circumstances. This has happened in the past, and we have been incredibly strict with the punishments. If you witness this happening, you should definitely make a staff complaint.

I agree, but you'd think they would know better than that. Thats why people started to suspect them using logs to just find out locations.

 

[Acerius]

...let people know of what’s going on for not just a single mind.

More people complain about this and have so called ‘suspicions’.

I’d like to add that this isn’t me saying I have suspicions nor making the accusations, I’m just providing examples and things that people don’t see as right and explaining why.

The assumption made by other persons might well be grounded. Why do their assumptions hold value?

The question I’ve heard the so called ‘victims’ state again and again was something along these lines:

ONCE AGAIN LIKE TO ADD THAT IM STATING THE STORIES/ASSUMPTIONS I’VE BEEN TOLD. I’M NOT ACCUSING ANYONE NOR MAKING THE ASSUMPTIONS.

I am not sure why you felt the need to emphasise throughout the entirety of your post that these are not strictly your opinions as, in the grand scheme of things, it is immaterial when we do not know who you are actually referencing or what your sample size is. If these people would like to come forward and share their individual experiences then that would be great, as to be honest we cannot action any of these as a staff team without first-hand accounts.

Before I move on I would like to say that Administrators and above take all Staff Complaints extremely seriously and with utmost confidence with regards to your privacy, wherever possible. Anyone who believes that they have evidence of abuse or wrongdoing, even if they are not 100% certain, should be making a Staff Complaint. If the evidence presented holds water, then as @Hayden said above there will be consequences.

If I am being brutally honest you are not the first one to post a thread like this and I always get pretty disgruntled when I see them pop up; not because I feel aggrieved or offended by what is being said, but because I have never heard any such complaints - not even in passing conversation - from anyone. Not in my entire time being a staff member.

If there are real concerns with good foundations of either evidence or logical reasoning, why are people not coming forward? Why are people letting it be bottled up and then burst out in a thread like this, where no real action can be taken from it because they are just generic concerns that, at this point, resemble old wives' tales. I have only ever been approached once by someone in confidence because they believed someone was abusing their powers as staff.

I agree, but you'd think they would know better than that. Thats why people started to suspect them using logs to just find out locations.

The conundrum is that someone can present themselves in any way that they choose, so as to obtain a staff position. An element of blind trust and risk will always be present when accepting Enforcers and promoting them to Moderators. It can never be blatantly obvious that someone is applying for the sole reason of benefitting themselves or a small group. There have been historical cases where someone will be a well-established staff member and then suddenly, a switch flicks in their head, and then they start abusing.

That risk is never going to go away and to be blissfully ignorant and say "well one day, we will have a perfect system where there will only be people who never abuse" is being unrealistic. This happens in all different situations in real life - people who appear qualified for a job role but 6 months down the line they are not performing; politicians who say they are in it "for the people" but their actions and policies state otherwise; those who on the surface appear perfectly normal but then commit heinous crimes in the dark.

To suggest that this is a recent and newly-developing concern as well is pretty silly. We have been around since 2013 and certainly weren't the first roleplaying community on Garry's Mod, or ever. These concerns always crop up in any community and have done multiple times in ours. In rare instances those concerns are held to be true, and action is swiftly taken. However in a sizeable number of cases it is simply a misunderstanding and often stems from jealousy, or being upset that one got raided multiple times, cannot hit their shots, et cetera.

1. Non Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to get screenshots of logs. (maybe in some cases only small things from logs that don’t matter)

You state this as an opinion but you do not actually say why. You make reference to the Action Request on Jamie but it does not actually support your argument - very few people have asked me for logs and those that do, I happily oblige. If your actual argument is a case of favouritism, then I would like to see some examples of where people have asked for logs and a staff member has refused to produce them. There are a few instances I can think of where this may be justified but in the majority of cases, I think it is perfectly fine to give people a screenshot of logs relevant to a certain situation.

Not to forget all those things were said in the Org chat.

Why does this matter? The General Conduct Rules apply to all platforms, including organisation chat, and in some rare instances where it is clear hatred or similar is being incited against a community member, will result in a punishment even if it occurred off of our platforms. If organisation chat logs were being given contemporaneously to another player at the time, where they could clearly benefit from it In-Character, then sure that is a problem. Sharing those logs retrospectively however, to then find that someone might be breaking the General Conduct Rules, then why shouldn't a point of concern be raised about it?

In essence while I appreciate the concerns you have outlined, they are not new or ground-breaking discoveries and have been concerns for as long as our community has been around. The difference between a Staff Complaint and threads like these is that they do not actually contribute to any tangible or useful outcomes. They just get people on all sides of the argument fired up for no reason and ultimately lead to baseless finger pointing and scapegoating.

The take away is if you genuinely have reason to believe that a staff member of any rank or standing in the community is abusing their powers, whether that be through evidence or logical reasoning, you should be making a Staff Complaint and having it investigated. At the end of it, you may find that there was nothing nefarious going on, and it was just a case of you being tilted and clearly misunderstanding how good you thought you were at the game.

 

[Ellie]

I've never ever heard any of these opinions or complains during my years on the server, but if you think a staff member is abusing their power you can make a staff complaint or contact senior administration with your concerns.

The only reason Jamie got the Org chatlogs was probably because it was relevant to the AR. We never give out Org logs otherwise.

 

[Bnjemann]

I'm going to start off by saying that I'm having a hard time believing that these are anyone's opinions but your own and maybe 2 other people at most given that half of these complaints really aren't something I've ever been told, and I talk to people believe it or not.

TLDR: Not my opinion, No logs for non staff and no admin powers when playing as civ.

How are you able to explain in detail someone else's opinions though and feel inclined to make a post about it, only to further defend "their" Words?

So for the peeps that will get offended or anything. Leave the senseless comments off of this post please.

If you're going to try taking some hot takes people are entirely inclined to weigh in as equally. You are not immune to criticism, even if you're playing this off as a "Word on the street" case.

2. Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to access logs or any admins powers if they are playing as civ/criminal.

And how do you propose we do this logic wise? We get very basic logs in our console, but not org chat logs, Nit picking information from that Mid RP is just not feasable. Furthermore, we don't access logs in game otherwise, we have to use the SCAMBans website for that. Tell me how restricting access to this in game is wise, how it'd change anything, and most of all, how would this work when its external?

In regard to "Admin permissions", which I assume you mean godstick, Teleport, Return, Bring, In game menu, and noclip, Please tell me how we can use those in game without being painfully obvious.

The problem being that people feel like Staff members use their powers to scout out where the desired orgs to raid are located. I personally have had a situation where I thought the same thing. I believe I got blacklisted for it back in the day when I named it in OOC (naming in OOC might not be the best thing to do I agree).
How do the staff possible do this? I believe there are two ways to do this. It could be either by noclipping into bases, which they do to check if the bases defenses aren’t breaking the rules. I’m not sure but I’ve heard that the staff noclipping into base even when invisible is visible in everyones demos (even when I accused staff back in the day of doing this, I’ve never checked my demos for it). So if you’ve suspected this happening check your demo to be sure. But the noclipping into bases on its own isn’t a problem.
I’ve heard several cases, I don’t recall from who. But that they suspected or even seen a staff member in their base only to get raided mere minutes after by that staff members org. I’d like to say that it could be possible that the staff member didn’t join or tell their org anything of where the base is located. But people have assumed that they would just steam message their org mates and tell them the location. This assumption stems from the fact that typing in org chat or whatever is visible in the logs, and would result in getting caught. Just look at point 1 where org chat logs are being shown. This assumption would mean that theres heavy metagaming involved.

This is the easiest thing in the world for anyone blindly shitting out this accusation to prove, Can you name anyone who has proven this lately though? You literally have demo files and a script made by one of our owners that can prove this in like an hour at most, anyone with the time to spend watching virtual plants grow can find the time to do this, and the effort to outcome ratio if proved would be widely beneficial. I refuse to believe that anyone who genuinely believes and is rooted enough in their belief that someone who is supposed to make the gameplay experience better for other players is using their permissions to give them an advantage at inconveniencing other players wouldn't feel inclined to go ahead and prove it. Why would anyone who is under the impression that the staff of a server are playing dirty with their tricks continue to play the server normally and as intended several hours a week?

I'd like to point this line out in particular:

I believe I got blacklisted for it back in the day when I named it in OOC (naming in OOC might not be the best thing to do I agree).

Back in the day was a lot more recent that you've made it out to be. Are you sure that you aren't the one that's been telling impressionable players that staff are actively doing this?

They can clearly see org chat and if I’m correct they can even see logs of peeps eating food and exactly where they did that.

This is again accessed outside of the game; it is simply not convenient for us to scout you out through logs. People know your car, that's it. We can see them, its more hassle than it's worth finding it to act on in game.

I ONCE AGAIN LIKE TO ADD THAT IM STATING THE STORIES/ASSUMPTIONS I’VE BEEN TOLD. I’M NOT ACCUSING ANYONE NOR MAKING THE ASSUMPTIONS.

Or you've just listened to one too many seethe posts. The fact that you've had to annotate this twice probably should have given you some sort of clue that this is absolute hog wash.

Players beating you and your friends isn't down to "StaFf aBuSe" at all. I've seen every excuse in the book pulled from your organisation, even stream sniping. Making excuses is one thing, trying to run with this facade that there's actually an issue within the community that is contributing to your failures that needs to be patched ASAP Only gets more obvious the longer you run it. The only issue you've bought up that holds any real point of discussion is the granting of logs that players probably shouldn't receive but even that is such a mundane issue to begin with.

There's nothing to gain from blatantly using admin perms to locate certain players and organisations that isn't obviously outweighed by the present risk of them inevitably getting caught for it could be done by anyone who knows how to open a demo and run a script, especially not when that organisation in question holds a third of the active player base. If we did that, we'd be as easy to catch as a cold in fall.

Thats why people started to suspect them using logs to just find out locations.

Its cope posting. Players should prove it before they make the accusation rather than trying to ruin the integrity of a staff members reputation. This makes people act on irrational information thinking they are in the right causing them to resort to going on a tyrade of Lunacy as if they're doing the right thing, Harassing staff and players and getting community wide banned.

I agree, but you'd think they would know better than that. Thats why people started to suspect them using logs to just find out locations.

We do know better than this, you're right about something at least.

 

[Sorle]

god I miss the dumb rating

i prefer my opinion posts not prefaced with blatant lies and attempted to be masked as op just being a messenger, we all know exactly whos opinions these are and i have absolutely 0 respect for this manner of presentation, stand by your thoughts instead of feigning neutrality and showing no backbone whatsoever

point 1: relevant information for the accuser and/or the accused may not always be able to be obtained solely via the use of demos, so its up to administrative discretion to ensure the right steps are taken to leave no stone unturned and no information is left out when making a final decision, as is the duty of every staff member; are we really going to complain about not allowing information to be missed out?

also the org chat logs in this instance were vital because it was a matter of whether or not the accuser was attempting to mislead people as to the nature of the report and whether or not the affected party actually desired for a report to be opened

point 2: just lol

if the candidates we're choosing for staff can't be trusted with logs while they're playing then why are they staff? and why are we ignoring the fact that they can be abused for an advantage while doing just about anything on the server, not just as criminal? this alienates a whole group while not actually tackling the problem

if your claims have genuine merit then inform the accusers to gather demos because it's one of the easiest possible cases of abuse to prove and punish

additionally with the way the logs work, you could just disconnect, check them, and rejoin and raid if you were using them to scout - if you wanted to counteract this you would just have to completely deny log access, which then makes administrative duties near impossible

its about having staff members which can be genuinely trusted to have pure intentions, which at the moment i'd say we've done a good job of - its simply a risk that has to be taken in order for administration to actually happen


this post misses the whole point of what being a staff member actually is, throws wild blind accusations with no real backing and even somehow lacks a decent amount of anecdotal evidence, and shows no genuine constructive thoughts or consideration to your perceived mistreatments and why they may be necessary

lets not throw out posts riddled with personal bias and complete failures to consider the necessities of procedures and then try to mask it as something else, wasted a solid 20 minutes of my time

 

[GSOLAR]

TLDR: Replying to all replies / The intended message

Before I start I'd like to thank all for taking to time to actually read the post and replying in detail. It's supposed to be a discussion after all.
At first I wanted to reply to all individually, but seeing how the amount of text produced has gotten bigger than I expected, plus that I would probably end up repeating things. I'll try to reply with just one post and to the points made that I find relevant.

Nowhere in my post have I stated that I'm seeking anyone to get punished or actions taken against them. Nor have I stated that any of these claims are factual or my opinion. The fact that y'all have never heard any of these opinions and complaints is exactly the reason I made the post. It might feel like I was attacking the staff or accusing them, which is up to everyones own interpretation. I'm totally ok with that.

But I feel like some of you could be missing the point. By speaking for those who don't do it themselves, I'm both encouraging them to stand up for themselves if they feel like something isn't just and notifying/encouraging others who feel like they might experience similar situations. So in other words like @Hayden and @Acerius said, if you feel any wrongdoings, check your demo and notify staff so they can help you further.

The reason nobody came forward is that many members probably feel like they will get targetted or fall in bad grace with whoever doesnt agree with them. Eventhough I personally know this to not be true, others apparantly/might do not. I've heard lines like "They are staff so don't even bother" or "They have staff backing them up anyways". Not seeing or hearing these things doesn't mean it isn't there. Another reason why these things never came to y'alls attention is probably because it doesn't affect you. Why would a specific member who complains about these things go to the supposed source, all whilst thinking it would impact them negatively even more?

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@Acerius

"To suggest that this is a recent and newly-developing concern as well is pretty silly."

I never suggested this being recent and newly-developing. It only a recent thing for me hearing all this.

"However in a sizeable number of cases it is simply a misunderstanding and often stems from jealousy, or being upset that one got raided multiple times, cannot hit their shots, et cetera."

Jealousy comes into play often, obviously, being just mad also. Doesn't mean all cases are and people should just feel like they won't be heard anyways.

1. Non Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to get screenshots of logs. (maybe in some cases only small things from logs that don’t matter)

You state...certain situation.

I don't really understand how you can perceive those words as an opinion? Therefore I'll try to explain it better. The reason I used Jamies AR is to highlight why some might feel like others people are more favored. I don't read all action requests but I've never seen a new player get detailed screenshots of logs to be able to help them in an AR, doesn't matter whether it's relevant or not. I'm not saying Jamie is favored since he just got unbanned. But the fact that he got a staff member to actually help him out for his reply could make people feel like being at an disadvantage.

"They just get people on all sides of the argument fired up for no reason and ultimately lead to baseless finger pointing and scapegoating."

This is indeed a risk that could be the result of the post, but hopefully people start to stand up for themselves instead of pointing and not solving anything.

The take away is if you genuinely have reason to believe that a staff member of any rank or standing in the community is abusing their powers, whether that be through evidence or logical reasoning, you should be making a Staff Complaint and having it investigated. At the end of it, you may find that there was nothing nefarious going on, and it was just a case of you being tilted and clearly misunderstanding how good you thought you were at the game.

Amen.
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@Bnej

"I'm having a hard time believing that these are anyone's opinions but your own and maybe 2 other people"

You're free to assume whatever you like. But I'll give you my personal opinion. I don't really mind getting raided, for me it doesn't matter if the supposed 'adminabuse' is used to find me. I like to actually have some action since I dislike raiding myself. And 'losing' money doesn't bother me since I've already achieved what I wanted to achieve in PERP (cars, max firearms etc). The action is what keeps me playing and enjoying. Not to say I've never gotten mad or say things. But I think everyone has had those moments. Maybe not in PERP but gaming in general. So like I said, assume whatever you want. I kept rephrasing that the things I posted aren't my opinions/complaints. Otherwise I would've actually made accusations myself and not 'hide' behind other peoples complaints. Wouldn't be much of an encouragement otherwise.

TLDR: Not my opinion, No logs for non staff and no admin powers when playing as civ.

"How are you able to explain in detail someone else's opinions though and feel inclined to make a post about it, only to further defend "their" Words?"

How is this even a question... How am I able to explain in detail? Maybe actually listening to the people telling me these things? Inclined to make post? The whole point is trying to help and encourage people. Even if their accusations/complaints are invalid, maybe giving them an example to show that you can voice your opinion actually teaches them something. Teach them something they can actually use outside of the game also?

So for the peeps that will get offended or anything. Leave the senseless comments off of this post please.

"If you're going to try taking some hot takes people are entirely inclined to weigh in as equally. You are not immune to criticism, even if you're playing this off as a "Word on the street" case."

Everyone is inclined to weigh in, agreed. I'm not immune to criticism, agreed. But read the sentence you replied to again. It's supposed to be a discussion with valid arguments. Everyone can say what they want. But if you have a response with emotional baggage (offended) beneath it. Just don't reply because you add nothing other than the earlier named fingerpointing and people getting fired up or reacting when fired up. If you really want to say your say because you're offended by my post. Send me a PM and talk to me there. Was trying to keep this post somewhat informative.

2. Staff members shouldn’t be allowed to access logs or any admins powers if they are playing as civ/criminal.

"And how...its external?"

I would first like to say that I have no clue how the logs work and how you access it. Correct me if I'm wrong but based on your reply there are console logs, these are rather limited. And the SCAMBans website, where more detailed logs are. Ok so now I understand that part. How to do this logic wise? I have no clue, I'd need to see in detail with my own eyes how it works first. But like I suggested maybe adding a job for the ones who have access to the logs. Like a Staff job to be able to access logs. So as a civilian they can't see the logs. I understand that this would limit the staff in doing their job. But I'm just thinking out loud. What this would change? Well if the alleged assumptions/accusations/complaints are true, once again not implying that they are, then this would disable the possibility for the use to get an advantage (like getting a location of base for example). But saying nit picking info is not feasable is like saying hacking is too much effort and not rewarding.
How it would work when its external? I don't know. It's not hard or alot of work to have a website open on a second monitor and play on windowed fullscreen. Within seconds you can find what you need, or I assume atleast.

"In regard to "Admin permissions", which I assume you mean godstick, Teleport, Return, Bring, In game menu, and noclip, Please tell me how we can use those in game without being painfully obvious."

You can't I agree, hence why the peeps who feel like someone is noclipping in base, should check their demos. Which apparantly would show the noclipping dude in your base.

"anyone with the time to spend watching virtual plants grow can find the time to do this?"

We don't know what other peoples time looks like nor can we tell them what to do with it. But its like saying if you can play cricket you can also take the time to analyze it to see how you can get better. Some people just like to casually play and not get too seriously invested. (Weird example but I hope you understand what I mean)

"the effort to outcome ratio if proved would be widely beneficial"

Regardless of what I stated above I do agree with this, therefore encourage the peeps to indeed go into their demos if they have suspicions.

"Why would anyone who is under the impression that the staff of a server are playing dirty with their tricks continue to play the server normally and as intended several hours a week?"

Addicted? Likes to RP? Likes to play casual? Or maybe as I've stated before because they are scared it wouldn't work anyway because of favouritism or Staff itself being the cause and feeling like its a losing battle either way. They might feel frustrated but rather keep playing, taking their loss that potentially making it way worse for themselves. You probably aren't afraid to stand up for yourself, which is apparant from your reply. I can only admire that. But others might not for reasons stated before. Now that I think of it, age could be playing a factor here too.

"I'd like to point this line out in particular:

I believe I got blacklisted for it back in the day when I named it in OOC (naming in OOC might not be the best thing to do I agree).

Back in the day was a lot more recent that you've made it out to be.

Recency is rather subjective. What feels like back in the day for me could be 1 week ago for you.

"Are you sure that you aren't the one that's been telling impressionable players that staff are actively doing this?"

There's a possibilty that this could've unconsciously happened, if so that probably would've been in a fit of rage I assume. Doesn't mean that I agree with your assumption/accusation. I know that people like to flock with these things and rile eachother up, doesn't mean that they have own opinions and experiences. I'm sure some peeps are indeed impressionable but not everyone.

They can clearly see org chat and if I’m correct they can even see logs of peeps eating food and exactly where they did that.

"This is again accessed outside of the game; it is simply not convenient for us to scout you out through logs. People know your car, that's it. We can see them, its more hassle than it's worth finding it to act on in game."

Why watch virtual plants grow but not take the small amount of effort it takes to open console or move mouse to second monitor to get an exact location of potentially many plants and get some fun action along the way? This is same like saying hacking is too much of a hassle to download and not rewarding enough. What determines if it's more hassle than worth?
Maybe I get logs totally wrong. But 1 min of searching logs compared to driving around in the city for 10 minutes searching for the right base to raid might be worth it for some. Especially if it's impossible to check afterwards. I get what you mean with the reply, I agree with that. But others might not think as you do?
I'm not implying I suspect anyone of actually doing it. Just stating why someone would want to use it. Plus why people might actually suspect them of doing it.

"Players beating...begin with."

Once again implying that these are my complaints/accusations... My organisation? Implying it's 'my organisation' the complaints/acc came from. What organisation you even talking about? In the case of streamsniping tho, how the hell would you even proof that if it were true? What excuses am I making? What facade am I trying to run? What failures? What the hell are you on about.
You really want to make this personal don't you? I could easily imply that you react this way because you feel caught?
C'mon man... Let's keep it cool and not make it personal. Let's leave the personal attacks outside of this. I've been nothing but respectful.

"There's nothing to gain...in fall."

What's to gain I explained earlier, this whole paragraph is true for noclipping I'd assume. But maybe not for logs? Your org? Don't even know who you are IC or what org you in.. Once again making your own assumptions.

"Players should prove it before they make the accusation rather than trying to ruin the integrity of a staff members reputation."

I agree totally. It got explained to how to proof the noclip. But how to proof using logs? Is it even something thats proveable? And don't say that's its more a hassle than worth to use logs..

@Bnej to conclude this part, I appreciate your input. It seems that we disagree on some things. That happens, but let's not make it personal next time. I understand that my post could feel offensive but it wasn't.
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@Sorle

"god I miss the dumb rating"

Never knew there was one, but should be added back then lol.

"i prefer my opinion posts not prefaced with blatant lies and attempted to be masked as op just being a messenger, we all know exactly whos opinions these are and i have absolutely 0 respect for this manner of presentation, stand by your thoughts instead of feigning neutrality and showing no backbone whatsoever"

Don't shoot the messenger. No but in all seriousness, I pretty much answered all of this somewhere above here. But having 0 respect for me making a post I don't understand. You disagreeing or not approving. I can understand. But why disrespect someone who's willing to post such an controversial topic. Knowing all well the kind of backlash it could give him? Isn't that showing backbone?

"if the candidates we're choosing for staff can't be trusted with logs while they're playing then why are they staff? and why are we ignoring the fact that they can be abused for an advantage while doing just about anything on the server, not just as criminal? this alienates a whole group while not actually tackling the problem"

Acerius: "There have been historical cases where someone will be a well-established staff member and then suddenly, a switch flicks in their head, and then they start abusing."

"if your claims have genuine merit then inform the accusers to gather demos because it's one of the easiest possible cases of abuse to prove and punish"

Kind off the purpose for the post. I hope people who read all this will actually start and do it from now in, doesn't matter if they right or wrong. Atleast take action. Only question now that remains: is there a way to proof the checking of logs?

"additionally with the way the logs work, you could just disconnect, check them, and rejoin and raid if you were using them to scout - if you wanted to counteract this you would just have to completely deny log access, which then makes administrative duties near impossible"

It's impossible to have a foolproof system, obviously. But you make a really solid point here.

"its about having staff members which can be genuinely trusted to have pure intentions, which at the moment i'd say we've done a good job of - its simply a risk that has to be taken in order for administration to actually happen"

I totally agree, I never disputed this whatsoever. Once again the point of the was helping people. Even the staff with finding rotten apples.

"this post misses the whole point of what being a staff member actually is, throws wild blind accusations with no real backing and even somehow lacks a decent amount of anecdotal evidence, and shows no genuine constructive thoughts or consideration to your perceived mistreatments and why they may be necessary"

Eventhough this is a very strong argument, there isn't any anecdotal evidence indeed. I haven't thrown accusations tho. Only showing what's been said.

@Sorle I agree with almost all you said, so either you didn't understand the original post. Or I dont understand ur reply. Either way thanks for reply and sorry for the wasted 20 mins. This post will take way longer sadly.
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Not relevant for the rest of this post but: @Ayjay



There's no winners or losers here, just a discussion.
Butttttt I bet Leeds United would wish they only had 1 loss

 

[money]

i logged into forums to say that this is the most awful attempt i've ever seen someone trying to pull off something as solely someone elses opinion god youre awful at this brother. Pro tips i would give you is not to connect and relate yourself to the points "other people" have made, or refer to yourself when talking about them, or you know, agree with them, kinda making it your own opinion brother.

youre obviously in fear of being banned, ridiculed or staff-hated or probably raided by jamie alas you should know this is how people can work if you aim to express your and your org friend(s) opinion.

wont go into detail but without examples of metagaming (your first point is silly cause logs you dont normally see are given out if they relevant to reports) the thread is pretty shit

i log off now

 

[Acerius]

You're free to assume whatever you like. ... I kept rephrasing that the things I posted aren't my opinions/complaints.

Freudian slip where you forget we have access to logs nice one geezer.

 

[Dank]

Alright even the TLDR of this shit is too long for me to invest any time into, This has to be one of the most cringe shitposts I have seen in a while. I hope you are aware its not april 1st yet...

The complaints you are voicing for someone 'else' is bullshit, You and your friends in the Mercia days couldn't stop raising global waterlevels with the amount of crying when you got raided by either me or other staff. You always made these retarded allegations, I even told you in your face and I'll repeat it again, download Tiny's ESP and use that.

Now this part of your 'discussion' is less stable and well build then the mud huts in north korea

I would first like to say that I have no clue how the logs work and how you access it. Correct me if I'm wrong but based on your reply there are console logs, these are rather limited. And the SCAMBans website, where more detailed logs are. Ok so now I understand that part. How to do this logic wise? I have no clue, I'd need to see in detail with my own eyes how it works first. But like I suggested maybe adding a job for the ones who have access to the logs. Like a Staff job to be able to access logs. So as a civilian they can't see the logs. I understand that this would limit the staff in doing their job. But I'm just thinking out loud. What this would change? Well if the alleged assumptions/accusations/complaints are true, once again not implying that they are, then this would disable the possibility for the use to get an advantage (like getting a location of base for example). But saying nit picking info is not feasable is like saying hacking is too much effort and not rewarding.
How it would work when its external? I don't know. It's not hard or alot of work to have a website open on a second monitor and play on windowed fullscreen. Within seconds you can find what you need, or I assume atleast.

You have no clue how it works, yet you come up with some lackluster solutions. Let me give you some insight, All your supposed fixes are redundant and quite frankly stupid. You are staff because you are trusted to not abuse logs. If staff do metagame with logs and there is evidence of such, which is very easy to find out, they will be demoted. This is exactly why we have the staff complaint system. Now before you go 'all staff are friends' no we are not. Friends or not administration and community management have proven continuesly they are independent on their judgement which is something that needs some more acknowledgement.

Now lets go to this comment:

I don't really understand how you can perceive those words as an opinion? Therefore I'll try to explain it better. The reason I used Jamies AR is to highlight why some might feel like others people are more favored. I don't read all action requests but I've never seen a new player get detailed screenshots of logs to be able to help them in an AR, doesn't matter whether it's relevant or not. I'm not saying Jamie is favored since he just got unbanned. But the fact that he got a staff member to actually help him out for his reply could make people feel like being at an disadvantage.

How do I even start....

I will make this extremely simple in a dutch saying badly translated to english:
'If you ask, you can receive Yes. You've already got no'

What is stopping anyone from asking staff for more logs? You are defending yourself from an allegation, In which it is very fair to ask staff to help you find out more info. Would you not have done the same? Maybe we could make it more visible to players that in cases this is an option. That doesn't mean however it should be forbidden.

This whole thread seems more like your place to rant then an actual constructive conversation.

 

[24k3]

what is your point? people can request chat logs/kills logs to make a report or an AR

 

[Inchs]

Historical only one staff member ever abused logs from what I remember, and it resulted in org chat logs being removed from the console. I don't see your point and anyone outside of mercia doesn't have this opinion. The staff team is in the best state its been in for a while

 

[Madda]

I've handled staff complaints for god knows how many years up until i resigned from senior administrator. What you've described here makes no sense and has hardly ever been a problem.

I mean even the biggest part of your "issue" here isn't even an issue. Using logs to locate other orgs makes no sense. If you know another org is online it really is not difficult to locate them regardless.

 

[rxsm]

this thread seems dumb to me lol if you really have a problem with someone then make an AR or SC

 

[.....]

Can someone post an actual TL;DR to this

 

[Tyla Jai]

It's probably a good idea for a community manager to respond to community discussion like this so, I handle or move staff complaints as part of my job and can't say I have had one from you about log abuse nor do I think it happens. I believe any time a staff member runs a logs query that is also logged, everything is logged. If you think it is being abused then let us know in a complaint and we will investigate it. I'm afraid I have adhd and don't have the attention span to read everything you have said but if you want to discuss this on a voice call then poke me on teamspeak as realistically if anyone here is going to be able to make any change it will probably be myself and ethan. I'm afraid based on what you have said so far there is absolutely going to be no change to how logs are provided and logs access will not be removed from staff playing as civ because staff can be reactive to reports but also proactive in finding rule breaks during their roleplay, they might tend to avoid a report on their own friends to avoid bias but unfortunately we are not flush with staff given the playercount so sometimes this may happen anyway.

 

[Super_]

Reiterating basically what everyone else has stated but if you suspect that there has been any form of abuse from a staff member you are more than welcome to raise these concerns in the form of contacting Administration or submitting a staff complaint. But you cannot deny the fact that the logs and other permissions granted to staff are vital in order for them to perform their duties as efficiently as possible. Yes, the risk of abuse is always present but staff are made explicitly clear that any form of abuse will not be tolerated and will lead to the removal of their position; hell I've been demoted and removed from staff back in 2017 over an incident of misusing my permissions trusted to me.

Simply put, you've got tools available to you such as recording software, demo files with the ESP script created by TinySlayer and more that you can use to gather evidence and submit a staff complaint if you believe you've witnessed abuse where Administration should intervene.

 

[Dom (͡o‿O͡)]

Can someone post an actual TL;DR to this

People get fucked by orgs with staff members in, some think the staff members use no clip or logs too see where ppl are basing

 

[GSOLAR]

People get fucked by orgs with staff members in, some think the staff members use no clip or logs too see where ppl are basing

if ye start reading now Dom, you might be done at the same time your ban is over