Seasoned player Punishments are too harsh

[SamSN]

View attachment 15446
Another example which shows an interesting 1 week reduction even though last ban was longer for the same rulebreak so the statement that "you break the same rule your ban is always going to be longer from before." is proven false.

As I mentioned previously, what you do and how you act in response to what you did are part of the determination of what punishment you receive, generally if you keep doing the same thing over and over your bans will increase but whether they increase, stay the same or even decrease slightly are based heavily on what you did and how often you did it. In this specific instance while he was indeed banned for longer not to long before, his actions in this specific ban weren't seen as a particularly big rule break but rather a misjudgement and not a misjudgement he's not specifically known for, therefor based on his remorseful response in the following report I decided a less significant ban was in order.

Of course, whether your ban is longer, shorter or the same as your last one also comes down the staff member; lengths are entirely up to staff discretion and so some may choose to ban you for shorter than others (too a degree of course, if I issued to a permanent ban for 3.16 or a 6 hour ban for cheating it'd be changed by an administrator and I'd probably be told off)

If I was a moderator I agree that banning for a long time those who are malicious is agreed upon by everybody. What I don't agree on is treating everyone like they're malicious in this topic.

Being malicious only matters to a degree. You're expected to learn the rules when playing the server and if you continue to break the same rules over and over it becomes clear you're not learning, so you'll start receiving bans to force you to learn them or stop playing as well as give the community in general a break from your rule-breaking behaviour.

Generally you probably shouldn't be completely forgetting the rules over only a few weeks to a months period, especially the rule you've just come off a ban for in the first place. Myself and many other people have left the community for years at a time and remembered the rules coming back.

 

[Jack Bruhross]

Idk man I am managing, I can teach you sometime

The only problem I have with the rules regarding bans ETC is the following: The rules towards crims are alot more harsh and it is alot easier to break the rules. Meanwhile as a cop you can do alot of stuff that a crim would get banned for and it is left to IA to deal with. Yes we have had that argument over and over again but it is always proven that cops are given alot more of a "fuck up" window than a crim.

 

[213]

I believe Malicious Intent is a crucial detail to which type of player I am speaking up for here. Malicious intent can be shown by refusing to apologize, disrespectful attitude when confronted, lack of remorse for actions before being informed of the punishment but after being told the rule was broken as well as a multitude of other things.

How would you know if someone is being genuine in their apology? Anyone can say sorry and not mean it. This would just give rule breakers another avenue to try and evade punishments, which is malicious in itself. I think rules should be enforced based off of facts via logs/clips/demos.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

As I mentioned previously, what you do and how you act in response to what you did are part of the determination of what punishment you receive, generally if you keep doing the same thing over and over your bans will increase but whether they increase, stay the same or even decrease slightly are based heavily on what you did and how often you did it. In this specific instance while he was indeed banned for longer not to long before, his actions in this specific ban weren't seen as a particularly big rule break but rather a misjudgement and not a misjudgement he's not specifically known for, therefor based on his remorseful response in the following report I decided a less significant ban was in order.

Of course, whether your ban is longer, shorter or the same as your last one also comes down the staff member; lengths are entirely up to staff discretion and so some may choose to ban you for shorter than others (too a degree of course, if I issued to a permanent ban for 3.16 or a 6 hour ban for cheating it'd be changed by an administrator and I'd probably be told off)

So logically when a player is back from the 2 months you gave him prior and he has not touched the game in that amount of time. They mess up and break it in a completely different way in a "misjudgement," then get banned again that is exactly the torturous cycle I was speaking of which not only myself but many others I am in contact with must endure to even get a bit of enjoyment out of perp. We don't return wanting to break rules, we return not being perfect but expected to never mess up again.

The judgement of staff lacks in the department of maliciousness when they do not calculate the existence of this cycle into how long the ban is going to end up being. That alone leads to the existence of so many repeated rulebreaks by way more people then it needs to be. If somebody has misjudged but sincerely apologized (which shows honesty), being taken off for 2 months instead of 4 is not going to fix that cycle but instead give them false hope. Being taken off for 1 week is borderline allowing for that cycle to come into play, I would say, but it is more than a reasonable amount of time to sit someone down for a period of time so they understand to never repeat that specific action which happened to fall under that umbrella of whichever abstract rule they broke.

1 week is what I estimated to exist as a maximum for when rule-breakers are found sincere when being convicted of simple abstract rule due to a common honest misjudgement which in the end is all proven by official apologies paired with all the other things you yourself mentioned that may alter the ban length.

 

[rxsm]

angry because banned

 

[MalekIsWeird]

How would you know if someone is being genuine in their apology? Anyone can say sorry and not mean it. This would just give rule breakers another avenue to try and evade punishments, which is malicious in itself. I think rules should be enforced based off of facts via logs/clips/demos.

In summary a player will showcase their sincerity in their apology in numerous ways which are reliable and some are instantly apparent. Staff currently already implement some form of consideration for how genuine the rule-breaker is in their apology via Punishment Appeal and many more things. Rule-breakers who are malicious can't "try and evade punishments". Staff can easily and clearly tell that that person is being malicious through their tone, attitude, willingness to make an apology, reaction when shown they're wrong whilst not knowing the punishment which follows, willingness to refund or repair any damage caused by their misjudgment(s) and many more.
Refer to my reply to Sam to see more on that considering what we both said ourselves.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

angry because banned

me when banned >:'(

 

[SamSN]

If somebody has misjudged but sincerely apologized (which shows honesty), being taken off for 2 months instead of 4 is not going to fix that cycle but instead give them false hope. Being taken off for 1 week is borderline allowing for that cycle to come into play, I would say, but it is more than a reasonable amount of time to sit someone down for a period of time so they understand to never repeat that specific action which happened to fall under that umbrella of whichever abstract rule they broke.

We never start with 2 month bans, everyone who receives 2 month bans for something that isn't cheating or equal in seriousness to cheating in almost every situation received a few day, week or few week ban prior to to doing so, the fact that after this they returned to keep breaking rules in the same way that staff have decided to group them together is living proof that the idea that this "cycle of long bans" doesn't exist. If all it took was for them to be banned for short enough to "remember the rule", then they would have never gotten to the point of several month bans in the first place.

While bans aren't always the exact same instance of (for example) 2.5, you're expected to learn the rule generally after being banned for it once or twice, there are several examples of the rule on the the page and it's not hard to quickly think to yourself "Hey, could what I'm about to do be overly excessive and so disproportionate to their actions?"

 

[MalekIsWeird]

We never start with 2 month bans, everyone who receives 2 month bans for something that isn't cheating or equal in seriousness to cheating in almost every situation received a few day, week or few week ban prior to to doing so, the fact that after this they returned to keep breaking rules in the same way that staff have decided to group them together is living proof that the idea that this "cycle of long bans" isn't causing the problem they're supposed to solve.

As shown in my example, I never disagreed with the idea that 2 months aren't what started it. It's common sense that if punishment is too light, more rule-breakers pop up. Those types of people are malicious and will remain that way as long as the punishment is less than 1 week. Once punishment is threatened to increase beyond that I would imagine most people alike myself would understand to stop and think "oh shit, I gotta get it together if I really want to keep playing here." So most likely players who genuinely deserve to stay and enjoy the server will transform from a malicious rule-breaker into an imperfect human with the ability to make honest misjudgements which will still be treated with the crazy rate which increases their ban length tremendously.

Yes they MAY have started off malicious to get to that point, however when they try to rehabilitate and they relapse due to the limitless abstractions involved in those umbrella rules they are then pushed into that torturous cycle.

I disagree with the idea that "weeks or months" lengths regarding 2.5 or 3.4 when the player is not malicious will fix anything. Sure a player who is malicious will deserve any punishment coming their way (even for weeks or months), however in 2021 it is evident that all players (no matter how malicious) were not getting nearly as punished as they were in 2022 when the server began booming.

The disregard for the player's experience and relationship with the server due to the influx of players leading to the extremely higher rate of increased ban lengths as evidently shown in my examples for repeated punishments is a factual reality that seasoned players battle with whilst enduring this cycle. They endure it, not because they hate the staff team or the server and they want to be "disruptive," but because they want to improve however they're constantly going to be making honest misjudgements then being treated with extreme punishments. Also consider into a point I will paraphrase to the best of my understanding as close to what @Jack Bruhross stated; the rules give an extreme level of harshness upon explicitly criminals which is how 2.5 or 3.4 are broken most often. This can and needs to be fixed, I speak up for many people not just myself on this.

 

[Sorle]

As shown in my example, I never disagreed with the idea that 2 months aren't what started it. It's common sense that if punishment is too light, more rule-breakers pop up. Those types of people are malicious and will remain that way as long as the punishment is less than 1 week. Once punishment is threatened to increase beyond that I would imagine most people alike myself would understand to stop and think "oh shit, I gotta get it together if I really want to keep playing here." So most likely players who genuinely deserve to stay and enjoy the server will transform from a malicious rule-breaker into an imperfect human with the ability to make honest misjudgements which will still be treated with the crazy rate which increases their ban length tremendously.

Yes they MAY have started off malicious to get to that point, however when they try to rehabilitate and they relapse due to the limitless abstractions involved in those umbrella rules they are then pushed into that torturous cycle.

I disagree with the idea that "weeks or months" lengths regarding 2.5 or 3.4 when the player is not malicious will fix anything. Sure a player who is malicious will deserve any punishment coming their way (even for weeks or months), however in 2021 it is evident that all players (no matter how malicious) were not getting nearly as punished as they were in 2022 when the server began booming.

The disregard for the player's experience and relationship with the server due to the influx of players leading to the extremely higher rate of increased ban lengths as evidently shown in my examples for repeated punishments is a factual reality that seasoned players battle with whilst enduring this cycle. They endure it, not because they hate the staff team or the server and they want to be "disruptive," but because they want to improve however they're constantly going to be making honest misjudgements then being treated with extreme punishments. Also consider into a point I will paraphrase to the best of my understanding as close to what @Jack Bruhross stated; the rules give an extreme level of harshness upon explicitly criminals which is how 2.5 or 3.4 are broken most often. This can and needs to be fixed, I speak up for many people not just myself on this.

nah thats mad charge it tho

 

[Sorle]

if its accidents or edge cases sure, if ur a returning player sure

otherwise just dont break the rules or deal with it when u get punished, u should just know better lol

 

[MalekIsWeird]

if its accidents or edge cases sure, if ur a returning player sure

otherwise just dont break the rules or deal with it when u get punished, u should just know better lol

Honest Misjudgements count as accidents no? That's basically what I've been standing for throughout this thread. If the player was malicious you can reasonably state it was never an accident. Even if the player did something intentionally, if they had a reasonable excuse to showcase that they weren't malicious it is better off for them to at most receive approx. 1 week.

Saying otherwise is a logical fallacy of black and white given all the evidence and reasoning provided for such stance.

 

[Sorle]

Honest Misjudgements count as accidents no? If the player was malicious you can reasonably state it was never an accident. Even if the player did something intentionally, if they had a reasonable excuse to showcase that they weren't malicious it is better off for them to at most receive approx. 1 week.

Saying otherwise is a logical fallacy of black and white given all the evidence and reasoning provided for such stance.

not having my balls in ur face is a logical fallacy mate wtf do u need the big words for

honest misjudgements should be dwindling in number as u rack up playtime and should never be accepted as justification if uve been playing for 10 millennia and have 3 centuries of playtime which most perp addicts like u do

 

[SamSN]

Yes they MAY have started off malicious to get to that point, however when they try to rehabilitate and they relapse due to the limitless abstractions involved in those umbrella rules they are then pushed into that torturous cycle.

It's impossible to tell between someone genuinely being malicious or someone faking it because they have a desire to remain unbanned. But regardless of whether their intent is to break the rules or not, they're still breaking rules when given more than reasonable chance to learn the rules and stop breaking them. If they were being intentionally malicious for their first few bans then them wasting their few chances to break rules and only receive a warning or short ban is their own fault.

However in 2021 it is evident that all players (no matter how malicious) were not getting nearly as punished as they were in 2022 when the server began booming.

With this I just disagree, you picked one specific person who was being issued less punishments, but as I mentioned that is because his punishments have slowly increased due to him continuing to slowly continue to break the same rules and becoming generally more experienced. We have at no point decided "Now there's more players lets start banning people for longer" and with exceptions of the few people that continue to repeatedly break the same rules earning them longer bans, the average bans are still within the same few day to a week or two windows.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

It's impossible to tell between someone genuinely being malicious or someone faking it because they have a desire to remain unbanned. But regardless of whether their intent is to break the rules or not, they're still breaking rules when given more than reasonable chance to learn the rules and stop breaking them. If they were being intentionally malicious for their first few bans then them wasting their few chances to break rules and only receive a warning or short ban is their own fault.

But we agreed prior that honest misjudgements happen and that details are considered to show sincerity as well as whether the user is malicious in addressing whatever rule-break they're facing. Why is it all of a sudden now it is somehow "impossible," to calculate when we already have implemented a Punishment Appeal system that is based on the whole idea of considering whether somebody was malicious or making an honest mistake.

I'll even give you an example.

Player 1 has a bad history of 2.5, clearly malicious. He comes back from a ban and does a 2.5 unlike ANY other 2.5 he ever did before. His last 2.5 ban was 2 months now. When he was caught for his 2 month ban he was confronted with proof, realized, offered to refund and repair, sincerely apologized to both victim and staff before his time was even presented, waited then made a punishment apology on forums. His ban is reduced to 1 month. He comes back trying to get used to perp again after that time off. He makes a WHOLE other misjudgement based on the same umbrella regarding 2.5 due to it's abstractions he is now banned for month(s). Do you think he will feel glad to continue being honest even though he's looked at as malicious?

This is an example of an honest player who has clearly trying to be genuine in my opinion.
I don't believe I need to provide an example of somebody who's the opposite (but I am willing to if you need me to) as I am sure you can easily infer what the opposite would be.

With this I just disagree, you picked one specific person who was being issued less punishments, but as I mentioned that is because his punishments have slowly increased due to him continuing to slowly continue to break the same rules. We have at no point decided "Now there's more players lets start banning people for longer" and with exceptions of the few people that continue to repeatedly break the same rules earning them longer bans, the average bans are still within the same few day to a week or two windows.

That's simply not true, I showed myself and another person as well as offered to show more if need be. I have known many people alike myself who deal with the cycle which will eventually lead them to the higher lengths of ban that are constantly considered as malicious and treated way too harshly considering the actual statistics that show the level of difference between punishments being issued in 2021 vs 2022. People are humans, they can repeat a mistake especially when the rule you're enforcing is a rule that is so abstract it can be broken in a hundred ways by accident or on purpose.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

not having my balls in ur face is a logical fallacy mate wtf do u need the big words for

honest misjudgements should be dwindling in number as u rack up playtime and should never be accepted as justification if uve been playing for 10 millennia and have 3 centuries of playtime which most perp addicts like u do

Logical fallacy is a basic debate term not a big word...... it's to show dumb logic behind certain arguments for the purpose of getting to the real logical conclusion faster.

You're also completely missing the point. We have discussed the cycle and the out of touch argument many times during this thread so if you look back, you will understand more on why "honest misjudgements should be dwindling in number as u rack up playtime and should never be accepted as justification," doesn't work. I don't even have 1 month of play time but just like anybody else who doesn't have that hallway pass above their head I get banned for lengthy times, come back and try to be better, make a mistake and finally get banned again even if in both the prior as well as the current scenario I was genuine.

 

[Sorle]

Logical fallacy is a basic debate term not a big word...... it's to show dumb logic behind certain arguments for the purpose of getting to the real logical conclusion faster.

You're also completely missing the point. We have discussed the cycle and the out of touch argument many times during this thread so if you look back, you will understand more on why "honest misjudgements should be dwindling in number as u rack up playtime and should never be accepted as justification," doesn't work. I don't even have 1 month of play time but just like anybody else who doesn't have that hallway pass above their head I get banned for lengthy times, come back and try to be better, make a mistake and finally get banned again even if in both the prior as well as the current scenario I was genuine.

im aware mate i was taking the piss out of the excess convolution of a relatively simple point

well then that comes down to the judgement of the staff member dealing with ur case, and they should absolutely take into account ur overall playtime and the recency of ur other punishments - its also up to u to bring up the fact that u may be rusty with the rules due to whatever circumstances with ur playtime

i personally think in ur particular case which u are obviously referencing uve been banned for what might as well be a quarter of the year and if u havent taken the time urself during all of that to genuinely come to grips with the rules and actually give some thought to what ur doing then u deserve what punishment comes to u - especially on a simple rule like 2.5

 

[2766]

You're also completely missing the point. We have discussed the cycle and the out of touch argument many times during this thread so if you look back, you will understand more on why "honest misjudgements should be dwindling in number as u rack up playtime and should never be accepted as justification," doesn't work.

When you say that the argument that misjudgements or ignorance of the rules should be expected to decrease when your experience on the server increases "doesn't work" what do you mean by that?
Because what Sorle is presenting is not a logical fallacy. I think you would often be expected to learn and improve in any area you are getting more experience in.

Also, staff members or indeed anybody in life can never truly know if you are being honest or not simply by your word and therefore will look at what your actions are. They will take in to account you past and currents actions along with what you are telling them to determine your intentions. You have been banned once, with a minimum ban length of two weeks on each occasion, for each of the last three months. If I was a staff member handling your report and you were being remorseful or trying to explain it was an accident, looking at your record, I would find it hard to believe you.

Promises and words only hold weight when they are backed up by action.

Also mate, stop with this "torturous cycle" thing. Being banned is not a correctional facility and the staff team is not in charge of rehabilitating you. You are responsible for your own actions and this includes learning the rules. If you are not able to learn them after being banned multiple times then the server is better off without you, regardless of if you are malicious or not.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

im aware mate i was taking the piss out of the excess convolution of a relatively simple point

well then that comes down to the judgement of the staff member dealing with ur case, and they should absolutely take into account ur overall playtime and the recency of ur other punishments - its also up to u to bring up the fact that u may be rusty with the rules due to whatever circumstances with ur playtime

i personally think in ur particular case which u are obviously referencing uve been banned for what might as well be a quarter of the year and if u havent taken the time urself during all of that to genuinely come to grips with the rules and actually give some thought to what ur doing then u deserve what punishment comes to u - especially on a simple rule like 2.5

that whole statement has nothing to do with the subject matter of the debate, it's just so you consistently attacking the person not the argument. I'm not going to entertain that anymore unfortunately.

When you say that the argument that misjudgements or ignorance of the rules should be expected to decrease when your experience on the server increases "doesn't work" what do you mean by that?
Because what Sorle is presenting is not a logical fallacy. I think you would be often be expected to learn and improve in any area you are getting more experience in.

My photo examples to back up anything I say are present in a past post included in this thread.

Fallacy:
My basis is logical, I NEVER said it's ok to be "ignorant of the rules." I am saying Sorle brings an extremely weak argument which not only attacks me as the person disagreeing instead of what I am saying but also is a black and white fallacy since it presupposes that any and all seasoned players will eventually never break any rules at some point as they continue to play the server.

Why?
I can't disagree that TECHNICALLY the more you play the more you'll begin to understand these commonly broken rules but where it starts to go wrong is that the way you originally broke the rule is specific to that context. The rule you broke, lets say 2.5 for this instance, can be broken in many different ways due to it being extremely abstract and existing as an umbrella for numerous types of scenarios.

Also, staff members or indeed anybody in life can never truly know if you are being honest or not simply by your word and therefore will look at what your actions are. They will take in to account you past and currents actions along with what you are telling them to determine your intentions. You have been banned once, with a minimum ban length of two weeks on each occasion, for each of the last three months. If I was a staff member handling your report and you were being remorseful or trying to explain it was an accident, looking at your record, I would find it hard to believe you.

Promises and words only hold weight when they are backed up by action.

Nobody is perfect:
Anybody can break rules no matter who because we're all human so we make mistakes (even staff proven by many things including accepted disputes). These mistakes are the opposite of what ignorance is since mistakes are honest misjudgments that people who are honest can learn from as they occur due to the root factor of being human, meanwhile ignorance is a response presented by somebody who is malicious which also doesn't want to improve their behavior. That is very easily differentiated from someone who is genuine which draws that line between honest mistake and malicious rule-break which is deserving of longer than approx 1 week.

The problem with an any player trying to learn after a bad history is as follows:

Player 1 has malicious history, Comes back from 1 month ban for 2.5 over a VERY SPECIFIC scenario regarding an explicit context surrounding a way he broke 2.5. He used to get banned for days or weeks in 2021 (because evidently as shown in pictures rarely did people get month bans in 2021 until 2022 came around). He returns and plays for a day, he's so rusty and out of touch for not being able to touch the game for a whole month. Pair that with the abstractions that 2.5 has and such other rules that get most people (criminals mostly) banned for long times then you have a player who is doomed as soon as he's unbanned. He may learn to not repeat that specific way he broke 2.5 on his previous ban but he's not safe from the abstractions. He's convicted of doing 2.5 again in some other context he couldn't predict then he is confronted. He apologizes instantly after being proven wrong, offers to refund, promises to not repeat THAT specific scenario ever, apologizes on forums and doesn't insult or disrespect anybody.

Why WORDS + ACTIONS matter:
This is a genuine player who made an honest mistake regardless of their record. It's nearly impossible, as a malicious player, to pull off all of this in a convincing way. It is also infinitely better overall as there are far too many honest players who want to apologize before they're even presented with their punishment. However regardless of whatever they do or say they're delivered months of punishment. Even if they do the best they can to try and show it was a mistake they will be off'ed for at least weeks or months still. The little hope he gets from his appeal being accepted is only a time reduction on the ticking timebomb that is their unban which will most likely lead up to their falling for the same umbrella rule. Do you think he would have a good relationship with the server or that he would like to be back from then on? I don't.

I disagree strongly with the implication of when you say "staff members or indeed anybody in life can never truly know if you are being honest or not simply by your word and therefore will look at what your actions are," because that argument ignores any possibility that words can't show intention. Your words are very valuable in determining whether you were genuine or malicious which also work coherently along with your actions to showcase a general likelihood that can be inferred based on everything overall.

 

[Dank]

Well well well, what a surprise…

Most points in this thread have been debunked by staff or other players there is one thing I find interesting.

You are using 2.5 as an example arguably a rule that needs no context and your bans prove that.

Let’s debunk it shall we? You have been banned for nearly the same thing 3 times. Negatively affecting players with malicious intent. There is no argument as your second ban even states that you made up a KOS.

I fail to understand how you can argue these are different context and can be broken as a mistake when it is literally nothing more, then you ruining someone’s experience over something minor. Now all your points also revolve about improvement.

Fun fact, a lot of people do not care to improve, hence why there are people with 30+ bans. It means either they don’t bother to learn, or do these actions based on impulses which means they ruin their own and everyone elses experience with recklessness. Staff should not have to keep following these players to make sure they don’t do it again.

The rules are not hard, they are quite simple. If you can’t understand them, ask staff so you don’t do stupid shit. You can also learn by asking, planning your actions and see if they are acceptable. If you just do it and you were wrong there was enough opportunity to prevent it.