Mango/Jay Rothwell and FatGeorge/George Wolff

[Topher]

Your Steam/In-game Name: Topher/Tayshawwn Genius-Zamilion
His/Her Steam/In-game Name: Mango/Jay Rothwell and FatGeorge/George Wolff
His/Her SteamID: STEAM_0:1:119099254 (mango) STEAM_0:1:108264788 (fatgeorge)
Why Should This Player Be Punished:
Both of these players mugged me in the bazaar shops, taking me from the front of a store into the back. Their reasoning was that since I crossed the border from the main passage of the shops into one of the shopfronts (still a public place), I was a valid target. I have yet to see the actual logic behind this.

Rule 5.1 states that 'Muggings should only take place in locations which are out of the view of the public.' A shopfront is absolutely in view of the public, and since I was threatened with a gun in the shopfront, the mugging took place there and was then carried into the back of the shop.

I also have precedent on my side:

Let's take a look at a few sentences from this verdict back when ayjay was an admin (please tell me if this judgement has been overruled by another AR verdict):

1
'It's not and has never been acceptable to attempt to gunpoint someone in public, and then move them to a more public place to mug them.'
2
'even the alleyway[behind the bazaar] is a little dodgy (considering there's a fence).'
3
'Mugging does not give you a free pass to gunpoint people in public'
4
'you shouldn't move people about in order to reach a safer place, the place you initially chose to mug someone should be suitable enough for you not to do this.'

1 is a general sentence that applies to my situation and, in my opinion (irrelevant ik) already makes my argument valid

2 reflects that if the alleyway, which archetypally is a great place for a mugging is dodgy seeing as passing traffic can see you through it, then a shopping area is super fucking dodgy. anyone could come in at any time and witness the crime, including police officers.

3 is simple: if you could not easily get away with gunpointing someone somewhere without a considerable risk, mugging doesn't make it better. Pulling a gun on someone in a market is dumb because you could be spotted at any time and confronted by law enforcement or org members of the muggee(?).

4 is the big one: you CAN'T mug by moving someone into a private area from a public area. If you can't mug someone IN a shopfront, you can't START the mugging there. You should be able to finish the robbery in one place, hypothetically.
I'll close off this argument by saying that this is the situationally relevant judgement of an admin who is now a senior.

btw sorry guys, i'd only make the RR if i could.
Evidence (Demo Required):http://www.mediafire.com/file/tfb8sk4bj8z7aua/perpheads_demo_2018-9-15_22-46-17.dem/file
Tick: 32500

 

[FatGeorge]

well i mean i didnt gp you into the shop

 

[Topher]

never said you did; you took part in the mugging by taking items.

 

[mango]

Was already dealt with in-game by @Gimic and he said there was nothing wrong with it. In my 3 months playtime it has always been allowed. Also, I would like to state that:

1. There was no one around
2. It was night time
3. Bazaar was dead; no one owned any shops
4. We did it in a quick and timely manner

Also the situation with Ayjay was in a different context and it can't be applied for gunpointing someone in to the back of the shop.

Not to mention the fact that I refunded you because I felt bad for you alongside some profit.

 

[Topher]

Also the situation with Ayjay was in a different context and it can't be applied for gunpointing someone in to the back of the shop.

Ayjay's AR context:
mugging in bazaar shops area, started in alleyway (public place) ended in bazaar shop (private place)
My AR context:
mugging in bazaar shops area, started in shop passage/storefront (public place) ended in bazaar shop (private place)
context is effectively the same.

Was already dealt with in-game by @Gimic and he said there was nothing wrong with it. In my 3 months playtime it has always been allowed.

I am contesting his judgement by hoping that the higher echelons of the staff team/other mods will disagree

1. There was no one around
2. It was night time
3. Bazaar was dead; no one owned any shops
4. We did it in a quick and timely manner.

5.1 mentions that muggings can't take place in the middle of a street. it never mentions that you can mug there if it's night time (cities realistically don't die at night, especially in a business area) or if no one is there. the location is what matters, not other factors. people have been banned for mugging on the beach even when the people involved in the mugging are the only ones there.

 

[mango]

I am contesting his judgement by hoping that the higher echelons of the staff team/other mods will disagree

You can't do that. You have to make a staff complaint if you feel like his judgement is poor.

Also inside a bazaar shop is a lot more private than an allyway as it's not next to a main road.

 

[FatGeorge]

never said you did; you took part in the mugging by taking items.

yes which was completely fine as you were in the shop at that point, also bazaar was completely empty at the point where you were gp'd and ther were no consiquences for me nor mango so it worked out therefore not a rulebreak

 

[Topher]

You can't do that. You have to make a staff complaint if you feel like his judgement is poor.
Also inside a bazaar shop is a lot more private than an allyway as it's not next to a main road.

staff complaints are for misconduct, not for opinions given on the spot. this is why 'makeanarm8' is a common answer

the mugging in ayjay's situation STARTED in an alleyway, but ENDED in a shop. our mugging STARTED in another public place and ENDED in a shop, same as ayjay's.

the person in ayjay's ar was threatened with a weapon in the alleyway and then forced into a shop. the judgement applied there is absolutely relevant here.

 

[Topher]

yes which was completely fine as you were in the shop at that point, also bazaar was completely empty at the point where you were gp'd and ther were no consiquences for me nor mango so it worked out therefore not a rulebreak

pulling a gun on 2 cops with glocks trained on you and killing them out of skill or luck doesn't make it any less of a 3.6/3.4 break.

 

[mango]

pulling a gun on 2 cops with glocks trained on you and killing them out of skill or luck doesn't make it any less of a 3.6/3.4 break.

We never had to shoot cops anyway.

staff complaints are for misconduct, not for opinions given on the spot. this is why 'makeanarm8' is a common answer

the mugging in ayjay's situation STARTED in an alleyway, but ENDED in a shop. our mugging STARTED in another public place and ENDED in a shop, same as ayjay's.

As I've already stated, you can't make an AR if it was already dealt with in-game. Of which, 2 ARs on me have been closed as they were already dealt with in-game. So have fun having this one closed too.

 

[Topher]

We never had to shoot cops anyway.



As I've already stated, you can't make an AR if it was already dealt with in-game. Of which, 2 ARs on me have been closed as they were already dealt with in-game. So have fun having this one closed too.

'i dont see why it's not' isn't a consclusive answer imo. i'm willing to see what happens.
also, what i posted was an attempt to explain why outcome doesn't determine if something is a rulebreak.

 

[mango]

Mate just stop arguing. I've already refunded you and a staff member has already told you that it's allowed. What else do you want? A gold medal for ignoring staff?

 

[Topher]

Mate just stop arguing. I've already refunded you and a staff member has already told you that it's allowed. What else do you want? A gold medal for ignoring staff?

i don't care if you gave me money. a staff member saying 'idunnom8' and then letting me make an AR to argue my case isn't close to ignoring.

 

[mango]

a staff member saying 'idunnom8' and then letting me make an AR to argue my case isn't close to ignoring.

He didn't say he didn't know. He literally said there's nothing wrong with it and it's allowed. Stop twisting what he said to make it as if he doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

[Topher]

afaik the most conclusive thing i heard him say was 'i don't see why it wouldn't be' or something among those lines. feel free to correct me. in any case i'm still going to contest it with new information seeing as imo it's clearly wrong.

 

[mango]

afaik the most conclusive thing i heard him say was 'i don't see why it wouldn't be' or something among those lines. feel free to correct me. in any case i'm still going to contest it with new information seeing as imo it's clearly wrong.

What Ayjay was getting at in his post was taking someone from the streets for example and moving them into a shop with force. This is because they're exposed to the direct public from 360 degrees. A bazaar shop however, is very closed and can only be seen from the front, not around and from behind. And considering we planned it and made sure that it was night time and there was no one about, we had time to get you inside the shop in a timely manner and mug you successfully.

I can tell you from experience of my 3 months playtime that it has happened a lot, not just me doing it but other people doing it to me. The rule 5.1 also states that you can't be mugged in a public area, but it doesn't say you can't be moved out of a public area if done in a timely fashion and made so no one can see it.

 

[Topher]

What Ayjay was getting at in his post was taking someone from the streets for example and moving them into a shop with force. This is because they're exposed to the direct public from 360 degrees. A bazaar shop however, is very closed and can only be seen from the front, not around and from behind. And considering we planned it and made sure that it was night time and there was no one about, we had time to get you inside the shop in a timely manner and mug you successfully.

I can tell you from experience of my 3 months playtime that it has happened a lot, not just me doing it but other people doing it to me. The rule 5.1 also states that you can't be mugged in a public area, but it doesn't say you can't be moved out of a public area if done in a timely fashion and made so no one can see it.

you have to either look straight down the bollards into the alley to see someone being forced in or you have to be driving by and have your eyes on the alley instead of the road. also, you can hear someone saying 'get in the back now now now' in a bazaar shop, you can pass by from multiple places, and you could easily see what was going on several parking spaces in the big parking lot. each area has its ups and downs in terms of visibility, but pulling at straws to make the argument that mugging someone in an area that people frequently traverse and peruse by foot is more sneaky beaky than doing it in an alleyway with much lower situational visibility is not going to work.

also, the rule doesn't matter when two people have received warnings that (afaik) they still have for doing what you described in your second paragraph.
please find me one AR where time of day determined whether an action was OK or not
im sleepy. gn.

 

[mango]

you have to either look straight down the bollards into the alley to see someone being forced in or you have to be driving by and have your eyes on the alley instead of the road. also, you can hear someone saying 'get in the back now now now' in a bazaar shop, you can pass by from multiple places, and you could easily see what was going on several parking spaces in the big parking lot. each area has its ups and downs in terms of visibility, but pulling at straws to make the argument that mugging someone in an area that people frequently traverse and peruse by foot is more sneaky beaky than doing it in an alleyway with much lower situational visibility is not going to work.

also, the rule doesn't matter when two people have received warnings that (afaik) they still have for doing what you described in your second paragraph.

Doesn't really matter considering I was hardly exposed to the public. Any area where you can mug has it's own risks, e.g. mugging at the Docks which is allowed. Not to mention the fact that when I spoke to Gimic even he said it was done in a timely manner and it was done quickly. The only reason why it wouldn't have ended quickly is that if you didn't comply, which would then mean said person is breaking the rules anyway.

 

[Topher]

mugging people at the docks is allowed but mugging people in easily viewed areas in the bazaar is debatable and people have been warned for it.
nice to see you dropped that argument.

 

[mango]

mugging people at the docks is allowed but mugging people in easily viewed areas in the bazaar is debatable and people have been warned for it.

Again, you weren't mugged in an easily viewed area. You were gunpointed and moved into the back swiftly, within 5-10 seconds. Not to mention the fact that it was at night time and no one was around, and none of the shops were owned. The chances of me being caught gunpointing you were the chances of someone hearing me whisper to you to drop your stuff. 0-1%.

nice to see you dropped that argument.

what?