Police Suggestion PD Hostage Situation Changes

[Anthony]

Suggestion Title: PD Hostage Situation Changes
Suggestion Description: PLPD should respect hostage takers more, if they negotiate for free passage actually respect it, not just look for any opportunity to shoot the hostage taker once the hostage is away.

Increase PLPD Awareness and encourage roleplay in this area from a top down basis, TFU especially. Look for more roleplay instead of combat!

Why should this be added?:
- More people interested in roleplaying
- Better faith from criminals that they will not act irrationally and respect the PLPD to actually roleplay things out.
- Less boring gamey hostage sits just to bait cops

What negatives could this have?:
Could limit the ability of PLPD to handle more advanced situations.

What problem would this suggestion solve?: The current lack of faith between crims and PD ooc not to just seek combat at every opportunity and actually roleplay things out.

 

[Tarone Idrin (mohammed)]

You know this is basic hostage procedure right? Only inexperienced or bad cops do this many good roleplayers like @AcidFerret respect this stuff bro this is lowkey a IA issue or somin

 

[AcidFerret]

You know this is basic hostage procedure right? Only inexperienced or bad cops do this many good roleplayers like @AcidFerret respect this stuff bro this is lowkey a IA issue or somin

thanks dude! However, this is a growing issue at the moment, its a fault of both sides unfortunately. and i think change does need to be made, however i dont think this is the exact change that needs to be made, if this were to be tweaked a bit i would like to see something around this, i also believe there should be a change on the hostage takers side as well, perhaps that they cant just immediately shoot, thus risking the hostages life? perhaps make it so hostage takers can only shoot if their (reasonable) demands arent being met, that would enhance roleplay for both sides

 

[exrobite]

There needs to be limits on both sides for this to actually work, limiting solely what the PD can do will make it vehemently unfun for that side. We discussed this in the latest admin meeting and hopefully changes are being planned.

 

[Bnjemann]

Hostage situations are a difficult balance of duty of care and general policing. Having to respect free passage should be optional if another opportunity to end the threat arises, As long as the hostage can be secured prior to engagement, or to prevent them from running off with the hostage still in their detainment, Officers should be allowed to, if authorised to by a supervisor, try and take down the threat. What you are suggesting is for even opportune moments to strike be disregarded, But for what? During free passage, officers allow a bunch of armed gunmen wanted for some of the most serious crimes to be allowed to leave and continue to pose a threat to the general public. Even if the hostage takers are warranted, Officers would have an extreme risk to their lives especially if they have to raid a property to get to them.

Limiting what officers can do further than what options they have already is not going to be an ideal set of circumstances if "Roleplay" is a concern. A hostage situation shouldn't be a forced powergame golden ticket out of every situation, more so should remain being a cornered last resort tactic criminals can resort to before turning to violence. If you really think having some forced get out of jail free card by threat of punishment if they successfully take you down at an opportune moment, Thats not roleplay, thats powergaming.

An elaborate hostage situation would normally result in guarenteed free passage with no pursuit, but a more spontaneous, poorly planned and executed one should receive the outcome it deserved. I'm not saying that all hostage situations should be planned meticulously in advance because I know thats not possible, But sometimes you're just stuck in shit creek without a paddle, as is life.

To say it'd encourage roleplay blurs the very definition of what RP is and implies that taking a window of opportunity to, as a police officer, end a violent standoff isn't roleplay, which is in itself a disregard for what it would mean to roleplay as a Police Officer. Being chained by your ankle to a set of rules that means you're forced to just give into every demand given and grant unrestricted free passage and agree with every single demand and deal made. Most "Hostage situation RP" is just cops saying "Okay sure I can offer you 5k and free passage because thats what some handbooks tell me to do", and shutting out any opportunity for a coordinated, well executed plan in stopping the hostage takers, which is their job at the end of the day, would absolutely not be the way forward in "preserving roleplay", it just leads to "SUPERVISOOOOOOOOOR THEY SHOT ME WHEN I HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE PASSAGE SUPERVISOOOOOOR POLICY 32.23 OF THE OFFICER RULES BOOK SAYS THEY CANT DO THAT".

Someone who takes a hostage alone or in small groups armed solely with Pistols should honestly achieve the level of success you'd expect them to; Stalled then shot in the side of the head the moment doing so becomes an almost guarenteed way to end the situation. This is the bulk of hostage situations, particularly the PD raid ones we saw a repeat string of constantly a few months back.

tl;dr: Hostage situations shouldn't be infallible, guarenteed golden tickets out of every interaction where you would normally be shooting Police to get out of, Police officers who launch realistic, coordinated attacks to apprehend or neutralise hostage takers at the right moment are in fact roleplaying as this is the Police's job, and this is not a good solution for tipping the scales of the interest in PVP VS Roleplay in favour of roleplay as it just forces something to go a specific way due to rules, forcing an unfairly significant advantage over the police force enforced by meta-knowledge that you will succeed 100% of the time or someones going to lose a PD rank or something like that is more of a problem than a solution.

 

[Ezza]

Until you have stepped into being a negotiator in certain situations, you may not understand how difficult it is to tell 15+ Officers to not engage, or general give them orders for the situation, if it was as simple as follow this procedure they fine, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not.

I have been TFU for years now and still to this day there's always at least one Officer who does their own thing and not follow instructions.


I fail to see how yet more policy's could resolve this issue.

 

[AcidFerret]

Until you have stepped into being a negotiator in certain situations, you may not understand how difficult it is to tell 15+ Officers to not engage, or general give them orders for the situation, if it was as simple as follow this procedure they fine, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not.

I have been TFU for years now and still to this day there's always at least one Officer who does their own thing and not follow instructions.


I fail to see how yet more policy's could resolve this issue.

A policy would lead to more supervisory work than there already is

 

[Ezza]

A policy would lead to more supervisory work than there already is

Yes and at full pop supervisors are already overwhelmed nevermind having more pathetic issues to handle

 

[Pinklord (Liam O'Shea)]

Until you have stepped into being a negotiator in certain situations, you may not understand how difficult it is to tell 15+ Officers to not engage, or general give them orders for the situation, if it was as simple as follow this procedure they fine, but in the grand scheme of things, it's not.

I have been TFU for years now and still to this day there's always at least one Officer who does their own thing and not follow instructions.


I fail to see how yet more policy's could resolve this issue.

I lowk might snitch on myself but I had to do a hostage situation a few weeks ago when it was me, my SO friend and 2 new player cops who were minging around. I had enough trouble handling the other cops, so I do truely respect and feel bad for the TFO CPL+ that have to deal with this shit on the regular.

 

[SomeUser]

tl;dr: Hostage situations shouldn't be infallible, guarenteed golden tickets out of every interaction where you would normally be shooting Police to get out of, Police officers who launch realistic, coordinated attacks to apprehend or neutralise hostage takers at the right moment are in fact roleplaying as this is the Police's job, and this is not a good solution for tipping the scales of the interest in PVP VS Roleplay in favour of roleplay as it just forces something to go a specific way due to rules, forcing an unfairly significant advantage over the police force enforced by meta-knowledge that you will succeed 100% of the time or someones going to lose a PD rank or something like that is more of a problem than a solution.

See this is a good point (that whole comment is too be fair) However coming from a pond of trying to sort the mayhem to making it I can see multiple sides to this but my main thing is, if i get outplayed by a TFU unless they break policy (There not me so 9/10 they do ) im chill with it, If i get domed by a pistol cop with a clear shot and autherization for a clear shot, fair play, i will ask but I wont complain, If something has gone wrong then i just make an IA, I dont want to be a bother, Coming from the other side, Controling a bunch of units to the point of me shouting IRL going shut your noise you fucking useless twats over a PD radio because I got people running around like they have just been lobotimized with a gun with there hands you just want that sitauation to be over, then you have IA's galore where if you call everything right you still get IA'ed. Then you have the raiders that unless there good just completely get fucked at every turn

TLDR: Nobody wins, everyone has forced a change in retoric, You start shooting at people during a hostage sit PD are more likely to be on edge when doing another one, You RP it out and get caught you start shouting for the all important supervisorrrrrrrr and then complain when we do RP it out, Grenades are even worse, Basiclly my way or no way to the point where most people just try and take a cop or 2 with them if they are going down, while crims have a hard time but honestly you all forced that change on yourselfs. While PD has changed for the worst trying to deal with a fuckin bunch of PD that have a vibrator in there arsehole and a icepick in there eye trying to explain to them what to do and what not to, and they go and do it anyway, all because theres nothing PD side to tell them no you cant do that other then trial by fire, However the only problem is I rather not get IA'ed for something I did not authizise so exeuse me for being hard on both partys but quite frankly its not he done it first argument its more of the case of why are we doing this in the first place

THE EVEN SHORTER TLDR: THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULTS EVERY SINGLE ONE PD AND CRIM HAS CONTRIBUTED IN ONE WAY AND ANOTHER

 

[Clarky]

See this is a good point (that whole comment is too be fair) However coming from a pond of trying to sort the mayhem to making it I can see multiple sides to this but my main thing is, if i get outplayed by a TFU unless they break policy (There not me so 9/10 they do ) im chill with it, If i get domed by a pistol cop with a clear shot and autherization for a clear shot, fair play, i will ask but I wont complain, If something has gone wrong then i just make an IA, I dont want to be a bother, Coming from the other side, Controling a bunch of units to the point of me shouting IRL going shut your noise you fucking useless twats over a PD radio because I got people running around like they have just been lobotimized with a gun with there hands you just want that sitauation to be over, then you have IA's galore where if you call everything right you still get IA'ed. Then you have the raiders that unless there good just completely get fucked at every turn

TLDR: Nobody wins, everyone has forced a change in retoric, You start shooting at people during a hostage sit PD are more likely to be on edge when doing another one, You RP it out and get caught you start shouting for the all important supervisorrrrrrrr and then complain when we do RP it out, Grenades are even worse, Basiclly my way or no way to the point where most people just try and take a cop or 2 with them if they are going down, while crims have a hard time but honestly you all forced that change on yourselfs. While PD has changed for the worst trying to deal with a fuckin bunch of PD that have a vibrator in there arsehole and a icepick in there eye trying to explain to them what to do and what not to, and they go and do it anyway, all because theres nothing PD side to tell them no you cant do that other then trial by fire, However the only problem is I rather not get IA'ed for something I did not authizise so exeuse me for being hard on both partys but quite frankly its not he done it first argument its more of the case of why are we doing this in the first place

THE EVEN SHORTER TLDR: THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULTS EVERY SINGLE ONE PD AND CRIM HAS CONTRIBUTED IN ONE WAY AND ANOTHER

how you gon make the tldr longer than the point itself

 

[Jack P]

I already made a suggestion like this which was denied, nobody cares.

 

[Tilin]

Like I've said before on similar posts. I do believe hostage situations in its current state need to be executed marvelously and with basically a sacrifice (yay I'm a sarcrifice) for them to work on the side of the hostage takers. Which shouldn't be the case, but oh well.

Issue is that it's a never ending circle of the PD not respecting the agreements as most people just use it to delay the situation or get an easy kill on the TFU hostage negotiator and vice versa; the civilians not respecting the agreements as most officers just use it to get a good shot at them away from the hostage.

---

I do think the solution to this could be a literal bomb vest you can place on zip tied players, with a dead man's switch on whoever placed it, but they may not wield weapons at that time. This vest can only be removed by Officers

Why? It makes the cops honor the agreements and it prevents the civilian in question from engaging in combat.

Why can only Officers remove it? So it can not be abused for "fake" hostage situations, thereby encouraging real RP with real hostages and not just easy kills on TFU.

Why should they not wield weapons? Same reason as above. This prevents you from shooting, essentially taking yourself out of the firefight if there happens to be one. This also means you'll expose yourself less to shots if it happens to come to that.

Would the player be required to hold down the button of the dead man's switch for realism? No. That would be stupid and would just lead to stupid accidents. Would work the same way as a C2 however, just that you're forced to keep it in your hand.

 

[Jack P]

Like I've said before on similar posts. I do believe hostage situations in its current state need to be executed marvelously and with basically a sacrifice (yay I'm a sarcrifice) for them to work on the side of the hostage takers. Which shouldn't be the case, but oh well.

Issue is that it's a never ending circle of the PD not respecting the agreements as most people just use it to delay the situation or get an easy kill on the TFU hostage negotiator and vice versa; the civilians not respecting the agreements as most officers just use it to get a good shot at them away from the hostage.

---

I do think the solution to this could be a literal bomb vest you can place on zip tied players, with a dead man's switch on whoever placed it, but they may not wield weapons at that time. This vest can only be removed by Officers

Why? It makes the cops honor the agreements and it prevents the civilian in question from engaging in combat.

Why can only Officers remove it? So it can not be abused for "fake" hostage situations, thereby encouraging real RP with real hostages and not just easy kills on TFU.

Why should they not wield weapons? Same reason as above. This prevents you from shooting, essentially taking yourself out of the firefight if there happens to be one. This also means you'll expose yourself less to shots if it happens to come to that.

Would the player be required to hold down the button of the dead man's switch for realism? No. That would be stupid and would just lead to stupid accidents. Would work the same way as a C2 however, just that you're forced to keep it in your hand.

A bomb vest on citizens is honestly probably the coolest idea that may actually work on both parts, this would also ensure hostage takers don't just shoot cops(If they want to do legit RP) as it can risk the player who placed the bomb to die and blow up the hostage which would be 2.5 Ig, due to killing a cooperative hostage. Ofc it should still be allowed to create hostage situations without having to place a vest and bomb, but if you wanna ACTUALLY RP it etc, that would be a really good idea indeed.

 

[HarryThompson]

Like I've said before on similar posts. I do believe hostage situations in its current state need to be executed marvelously and with basically a sacrifice (yay I'm a sarcrifice) for them to work on the side of the hostage takers. Which shouldn't be the case, but oh well.

Issue is that it's a never ending circle of the PD not respecting the agreements as most people just use it to delay the situation or get an easy kill on the TFU hostage negotiator and vice versa; the civilians not respecting the agreements as most officers just use it to get a good shot at them away from the hostage.

---

I do think the solution to this could be a literal bomb vest you can place on zip tied players, with a dead man's switch on whoever placed it, but they may not wield weapons at that time. This vest can only be removed by Officers

Why? It makes the cops honor the agreements and it prevents the civilian in question from engaging in combat.

Why can only Officers remove it? So it can not be abused for "fake" hostage situations, thereby encouraging real RP with real hostages and not just easy kills on TFU.

Why should they not wield weapons? Same reason as above. This prevents you from shooting, essentially taking yourself out of the firefight if there happens to be one. This also means you'll expose yourself less to shots if it happens to come to that.

Would the player be required to hold down the button of the dead man's switch for realism? No. That would be stupid and would just lead to stupid accidents. Would work the same way as a C2 however, just that you're forced to keep it in your hand.

This sound so good. Also adds suicide bomber rp

 

[iiTzWasParsnip]

Hostage situations are a difficult balance of duty of care and general policing. Having to respect free passage should be optional if another opportunity to end the threat arises, As long as the hostage can be secured prior to engagement, or to prevent them from running off with the hostage still in their detainment, Officers should be allowed to, if authorised to by a supervisor, try and take down the threat. What you are suggesting is for even opportune moments to strike be disregarded, But for what? During free passage, officers allow a bunch of armed gunmen wanted for some of the most serious crimes to be allowed to leave and continue to pose a threat to the general public. Even if the hostage takers are warranted, Officers would have an extreme risk to their lives especially if they have to raid a property to get to them.

Limiting what officers can do further than what options they have already is not going to be an ideal set of circumstances if "Roleplay" is a concern. A hostage situation shouldn't be a forced powergame golden ticket out of every situation, more so should remain being a cornered last resort tactic criminals can resort to before turning to violence. If you really think having some forced get out of jail free card by threat of punishment if they successfully take you down at an opportune moment, Thats not roleplay, thats powergaming.

An elaborate hostage situation would normally result in guarenteed free passage with no pursuit, but a more spontaneous, poorly planned and executed one should receive the outcome it deserved. I'm not saying that all hostage situations should be planned meticulously in advance because I know thats not possible, But sometimes you're just stuck in shit creek without a paddle, as is life.

To say it'd encourage roleplay blurs the very definition of what RP is and implies that taking a window of opportunity to, as a police officer, end a violent standoff isn't roleplay, which is in itself a disregard for what it would mean to roleplay as a Police Officer. Being chained by your ankle to a set of rules that means you're forced to just give into every demand given and grant unrestricted free passage and agree with every single demand and deal made. Most "Hostage situation RP" is just cops saying "Okay sure I can offer you 5k and free passage because thats what some handbooks tell me to do", and shutting out any opportunity for a coordinated, well executed plan in stopping the hostage takers, which is their job at the end of the day, would absolutely not be the way forward in "preserving roleplay", it just leads to "SUPERVISOOOOOOOOOR THEY SHOT ME WHEN I HAD BEEN GIVEN FREE PASSAGE SUPERVISOOOOOOR POLICY 32.23 OF THE OFFICER RULES BOOK SAYS THEY CANT DO THAT".

Someone who takes a hostage alone or in small groups armed solely with Pistols should honestly achieve the level of success you'd expect them to; Stalled then shot in the side of the head the moment doing so becomes an almost guarenteed way to end the situation. This is the bulk of hostage situations, particularly the PD raid ones we saw a repeat string of constantly a few months back.

tl;dr: Hostage situations shouldn't be infallible, guarenteed golden tickets out of every interaction where you would normally be shooting Police to get out of, Police officers who launch realistic, coordinated attacks to apprehend or neutralise hostage takers at the right moment are in fact roleplaying as this is the Police's job, and this is not a good solution for tipping the scales of the interest in PVP VS Roleplay in favour of roleplay as it just forces something to go a specific way due to rules, forcing an unfairly significant advantage over the police force enforced by meta-knowledge that you will succeed 100% of the time or someones going to lose a PD rank or something like that is more of a problem than a solution.

I agree with this, Hostage situations should be liable to multiple outcomes depending on how good the officers are and criminals. Sometimes the officers may just have to respect the free passage while in others, may be forced to try and take the opportunity to neutralize the hostage taker(s). TFOs are trained and should be knowledgeable enough to coordinate an elaborate plan. While people such as CPLs and SOs who may be forced to deal with the hostage situation, would be more forced to offer 5K and free passage, due to lack of training and such.