Seasoned player Punishments are too harsh

[.....]

Well well well, what a surprise…

Most points in this thread have been debunked by staff or other players there is one thing I find interesting.

You are using 2.5 as an example arguably a rule that needs no context and your bans prove that.

Let’s debunk it shall we? You have been banned for nearly the same thing 3 times. Negatively affecting players with malicious intent. There is no argument as your second ban even states that you made up a KOS.

I fail to understand how you can argue these are different context and can be broken as a mistake when it is literally nothing more, then you ruining someone’s experience over something minor. Now all your points also revolve about improvement.

Fun fact, a lot of people do not care to improve, hence why there are people with 30+ bans. It means either they don’t bother to learn, or do these actions based on impulses which means they ruin their own and everyone elses experience with recklessness. Staff should not have to keep following these players to make sure they don’t do it again.

The rules are not hard, they are quite simple. If you can’t understand them, ask staff so you don’t do stupid shit. You can also learn by asking, planning your actions and see if they are acceptable. If you just do it and you were wrong there was enough opportunity to prevent it.

lil bro tryna be me so bad he made a KOS line

 

[Efan]

There are people that have been here almost a decade and have nearly 0 or little punishments. If you’re repeatedly infringing rules, it’s simply because you don’t care or you’re unable to. That is a problem for you to fix, not the staff team.

Answer these questions:

Why should staff, volunteers, have to deal with repeat offenders?

Why should those who follow the rules and play the server have to deal with people who repeatedly show disregard for the rules?

If these people do not care or try to improve their conduct then why should the community and staff team put the effort in to deal with them?

 

[Liam]

bro compared to like 2015 people get it easy if anything it needs to be harsher

 

[Efan]

bro compared to like 2015 people get it easy if anything it needs to be harsher

I got a perm ban for hiding a gun in the PD toilets as SWAT and breaking back in for it as a civ

 

[Megasaw]

There are people that have been here almost a decade and have nearly 0 or little punishments. If you’re repeatedly infringing rules, it’s simply because you don’t care or you’re unable to. That is a problem for you to fix, not the staff team.

I totally agree with this. If you care about RP and are passionate about situations and how things should be played out, you would not break the rules. People who repeatedly break the rules just don't care enough.

I honestly think the punishment lengths are valid if people are consistently breaking the same rule over and over. The whole banning system in my opinion is to eliminate people who ruin RP (Mass RDMers, Trolls, Racists etc..) and to make rule breakers learn from their mistakes once breaking a rule repeatedly, therefore, preventing them from breaking that same rule in future.

This makes it a better environment for all players and gives new players a way better experience and therefore they are more likely to stay playing on the server!

Everyone is human and we all make mistakes, however, it is not an excuse to break the rules over and over when it can just simply be avoided if you care enough about RP.

Thank you for listening to my ted talk

 

[Pugga]

I personally feel the opposite, yes there is a few players who get harsher punishments than others because they are an "Old Player" but as experience from being staff you can easily tell if it was a genuine mistake or they just fucking with you and staff should go off this when handing out the punishment. If anything the punishments need to be dealt with more harshly in certain situations because 9/10 players will break 3.4 now adays just to save themselves 50k

 

[Creepis]

I got a perm ban for hiding a gun in the PD toilets as SWAT and breaking back in for it as a civ

you got a ban because you called me a smelly turk

 

[Mina]

you got a ban because you called me a smelly turk

damn didn't know u could get banned for speaking the truth...

 

[Kenty]

you got a ban because you called me a smelly turk

Truth hurts

 

[Kempotent]

Speaking from experience I was a very "seasoned" player on perp, everytime often I would take a couple months break from perp and come back, joining the server I still had recollection of the rules and at times I would accidentally break them and more often than not in a sit I would talk with said admin and we would take into consideration my time off and base the punishment off of that, now when I had come back and was playing after a couple of months "seasoned" playing you begin to start looking into loopholes as to where you can break a rule but explain it in a way that will get you out of a punishment, a lot of players do this as they have a good acknowledgement of the rules, which is why I believe it is more harsh on them, these type of players should be setting examples and so on not doing stupid shit and thinking "well I play on your server a lot so you cant ban me longer than anyone else"

Furthermore, when you play more you get recognised by more people, more staff recognise you so any rule breaking that you have done will go onto a perspective record for you and people will look at you as that type of person to break rules, staff as well, you need to understand that because you play on the server a lot you're not invincible and that's just facts, recognise that being a "seasoned" player is in fact a title that you should hold knowing that you are able to decipher rules into in game situations and know what to and what not to do, don't be stupid just don't break the rules if you want to play.

The bigger you are the harder you'll fall.

 

[Bnjemann]

@Bnej I believe Malicious Intent is a crucial detail to which type of player I am speaking up for here. Malicious intent can be shown by refusing to apologize, disrespectful attitude when confronted, lack of remorse for actions before being informed of the punishment but after being told the rule was broken as well as a multitude of other things.

If I was a moderator I agree that banning for a long time those who are malicious is agreed upon by everybody. What I don't agree on is treating everyone like they're malicious in this topic.

There comes a point with repeat offenses, regardless of how malicious the intent behind those actions were, become a commonplace trend which gives us a clear image that leniency is not working. Also, if someone is consistently breaking the same rules over and over again, would it not make sense to start considering that they're doing so intentionally?

Contrary to popular belief, we do want people to be able to play here and long bans are reserved only for repeat offenders and people who genuinely have no intentions on playing properly. I would consider our current and recent staff team rosters the best it's been in a while. When I first started playing PERP, Bias was ripe and staff would run amuck issuing huge bans for the most mundane reasons. Staff would permaban people for punching them in an admin sit, Or trying to jump off a roof mid admin sit, even though they had the ability to just bring and freeze that player. A weeklong ban was considered lenient back then. Staff would start arguments and ban you for winning. Nowadays, 1 week bans even are reserved for serious / repeat offenses and it's become so easy to not get a ban if you play carefully and choose to value rules over in game property.


PERP Zoomers don't know the pain of befriending a completely new player and giving them free gear to get started only for that new player to get a permaban for 1 count of trying to mug in public and then RDMing them solely dictated by the fact that they decided to jump off the roof in the sit in reaction to being told they're getting a 5 day ban for 5.1 and 2.5.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

There comes a point with repeat offenses, regardless of how malicious the intent behind those actions were, become a commonplace trend which gives us a clear image that leniency is not working. Also, if someone is consistently breaking the same rules over and over again, would it not make sense to start considering that they're doing so intentionally?

I do agree with this and I already covered this.

Lets say if somebody breaks 2.5 by killing an unarmed man during a raid on accident but get found guilty of an honest misjudgment . That FALLS under 2.5 because 2.5 is an umbrella rule. Then they go and slash all the tires of random cars in a parking lot. The difference between those two is night and day. The first situation he didn't mean it, but it still counted as 2.5. I'd say that player will be better off being banned for a maximum of 1 week considering he was found to be honest and didn't intend upon making that mistake regardless of his record. The second situation following that he was malicious, so he is punished for weeks and months considering his record. What

I am saying is in the first situation, if he showed the signals that I mentioned previously in other posts indicating authenticity in the idea that it was a mistake, then he should at most be getting punished for a 1 week off rather than that being hit with the rate of the length for his ban being increased to more months or weeks as if he was malicious.

Contrary to popular belief, we do want people to be able to play here and long bans are reserved only for repeat offenders and people who genuinely have no intentions on playing properly. I would consider our current and recent staff team rosters the best it's been in a while. When I first started playing PERP, Bias was ripe and staff would run amuck issuing huge bans for the most mundane reasons. Staff would permaban people for punching them in an admin sit, Or trying to jump off a roof mid admin sit, even though they had the ability to just bring and freeze that player. A weeklong ban was considered lenient back then. Staff would start arguments and ban you for winning. Nowadays, 1 week bans even are reserved for serious / repeat offenses and it's become so easy to not get a ban if you play carefully and choose to value rules over in game property.


PERP Zoomers don't know the pain of befriending a completely new player and giving them free gear to get started only for that new player to get a permaban for 1 count of trying to mug in public and then RDMing them solely dictated by the fact that they decided to jump off the roof in the sit in reaction to being told they're getting a 5 day ban for 5.1 and 2.5.

I wouldn't agree that ALL staff "want people to be able to play here," as I've seen and I am CAPABLE of bringing a few evidences that prove otherwise. Staff are still human and they have biases regardless of back then or now. Bias is human nature and whilst sure the punishments are lighter from 2015 or something like that, the point many will agree with me on is staff needs to stop treating ALL repeated offenders as if they're all intentionally breaking the same rule. The rules are an umbrella and they do not encompass all given possibilities in how they're written so no matter how "simple," staff think they are to follow. Any player can break them, even staff.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

There are people that have been here almost a decade and have nearly 0 or little punishments. If you’re repeatedly infringing rules, it’s simply because you don’t care or you’re unable to. That is a problem for you to fix, not the staff team.

Exceptions will always exist. That does not mean that repeated offenders are not a subject matter to be discussed. I am discussing the seasoned players who do struggle with repeated offenses and are trying to improve after having a malicious history. I am not justifying those who break rules regularly and want to be "disruptive."

Why should staff, volunteers, have to deal with repeat offenders?

Supportive Punishment:
They already do deal with repeat offenders. The distinction many of us want to happen is that players are always given months and weeks for repeated offenses even if they're believed to be honest genuine misjudgments. What I approximate is better for the player is if they ARE found to be honest and genuine instead of malicious and disruptive then they would be given about a max of 1 week off due to that being a mistake regardless of their record behind any rules at all.

If these people do not care or try to improve their conduct then why should the community and staff team put the effort in to deal with them?

Eventually that supportive style of punishing them will bring them to wanting to be better but still feeling a punch from their ban. This does not mean it is ok to be malicious and break rules. I think staff are smart enough to tell the difference between somebody who is being malicious but trying to hide it so they avoid a ban or somebody who is repeatedly breaking an umbrella rule on accident then doing their best to learn to be better.

I can use myself as an example here and show my record as further evidence:

Staff @MiniRaze witnessed me being involved in a shootout. I molotov'ed bodies but I did not know fire can spread causing cars to explode. I was brought into a sit. I was questioned and I immediately apologized, announced to him and in ooc that I am fully willing to refund everybody affected for anything lost as well as that I was extremely sorry, I explained my thought process and why I threw that molotov which was purely to remove DNA.

He gave me that 1 day ban and we had a wholesome understanding, from my perspective, that I will not break that rule again especially because of his supportive judgment.

The time between that ban and the next 2.5 ban was months in between which was a great achievement considering what?
This being the punishment I had received before Mini and I had a talk:
The 2 day and the 1 day were consecutive but the 2 day was malicious while the 1 day was a mistake treated with support from the staff member.
Here is the punishment AFTER the supportive punishment:

The breakage of 2.5 after that 1 day was months after that incident. Showing evidently that support and minor ban lengths regardless of record in situations where a player truly is sorry and wants to improve will be better off for them, when compared to disregarding the crucial factor of being genuine and honestly making a misjudgment.

Why does this situation count as a misjudgment?
I personally spoke with @Ultimate and I explained that even this was an honest misjudgment that was in context me killing an unarmed player whilst believing that he ignored my warnings to leave the area but in fact he was joining the game.

Both scenarios are what I believe to be honest misjudgments on my behalf. However, when I wasn't banned for months but instead 1 day. I felt supported to the point where I was able to not break the rule maliciously again in the following months.

Why should those who follow the rules and play the server have to deal with people who repeatedly show disregard for the rules?

Not justifying disregard:
They don't, I am not justifying those who show disregard for the rules, I am standing up for the many of us who want to learn to follow them. We struggle due to the abstractions existing within the umbrella rules so we fall into scenarios where we mistakenly keep breaking them and instantly after trying our best to fix in which after we are hit with what many of us believe to be an unfair sentence consisting of months or weeks.

I say it is unfair because I believe it is counter-intuitive, because if a player is off'ed for weeks and months, they didn't have to struggle with brainstorming about an umbrella rule for that same amount of time. Anything longer than approximately 1 week is going to eventually make them forget and be out of touch. That said, when they return they're bound to mess up again regardless of whether they are honest or malicious.

I want those who are honest to be treated more kindly with their lengths to help them improve. They deserve the leniency regardless of their record due to their effort and struggle with attempting to follow the rules but falling victim to our root human flaw of making misjudgments.

 

[Acerius]

 

[MalekIsWeird]

Well well well, what a surprise…

Most points in this thread have been debunked by staff or other players there is one thing I find interesting.

I am debating those who really are looking for answers. Telling somebody you disagree and stating you take on it then leaving completely doesn't prove you won it just means you quit having a discussion.

your bans prove that.

Again, My record will not prove anything because that assumes I am arguing for myself. I am standing up for all seasoned players who share my opinion and agree with me as they have to struggle with the current problems in ban lengths. I provided numerous examples and numerous explanations to many people in this thread that this problem we're discussing affects way more people than just me.

You are using 2.5 as an example arguably a rule that needs no context

2.5 is nothing but context-based. Being "excessively negative," can be anything from insulting somebody and making them cry, burning a persons planters, exploding a bomb in peoples doors to break their defenses, finishing an unconscious player off with a bat without any reason to, accidentally killing a player who was unarmed in a raid, having a Molotov fire spread to cars and causing many explosions and many more.

2.5 is an umbrella rule with infinite possibilities for it to be broken all in different ways due to it's abstract nature based on every single scenario given the context.

Let’s debunk it shall we? You have been banned for nearly the same thing 3 times. Negatively affecting players with malicious intent. There is no argument as your second ban even states that you made up a KOS.

I fail to understand how you can argue these are different context and can be broken as a mistake when it is literally nothing more, then you ruining someone’s experience over something minor. Now all your points also revolve about improvement.

Fun fact, a lot of people do not care to improve, hence why there are people with 30+ bans. It means either they don’t bother to learn, or do these actions based on impulses which means they ruin their own and everyone elses experience with recklessness. Staff should not have to keep following these players to make sure they don’t do it again.

The rules are not hard, they are quite simple. If you can’t understand them, ask staff so you don’t do stupid shit. You can also learn by asking, planning your actions and see if they are acceptable. If you just do it and you were wrong there was enough opportunity to prevent it.

This is a strawman fallacy and formal fallacy argument which lacks scrutiny:
Attacking me by not only falsely assuming; not just one; but all 3 of my bans were "nearly the same thing and malicious." Arguing that just because one of my bans includes a "KOS," that I had full malicious intent when you were neither the victim or the staff or me; whether it was malicious or not you don't know that for a fact; yet your argument is worded in a cocky way as if you do.

Your statement contradicts the staff you say "debunked me," because some themselves said that "nobody can tell the true intention of somebody." It also proves your take lacks scrutiny in understanding the deeper layers of what goes on in how staff can discover whether a player was malicious or genuinely making a misjudgment as well the player's struggle in trying to be better after returning from months only to be off'ed for more after making a misjudgment regarding an abstract rule.

To help you understand:
Supportive punishment to players who make honest non-malicious misjudgments will evidently cause them to not repeat those offenses in that same explicit context again as well as boost them to have a better relationship with the server, so they will naturally try their best to do better in a healthier way instead of get tired from being seen as a repeated offender being malicious.

Especially by the staff who don't have any knowledge of the situation except the description of their ban...

You assuming I was malicious in all of my bans proves my point in that there is more negativity in helping repeated offenders overall improve rather than positivity. This is why seasoned players are quitting the server because people will not show them leniency or support when the rule-breaker is being genuine and falls victim to their flaw of being imperfect especially when speaking of 2.5 due to it being a pillar of an example of an umbrella rule with many abstractions.

"Fun Fact," is a fun opinion:
Your "Fun fact," is no more than another assumption based on a false equivalence. You can't compare the number of bans to how many people are trying to improve without a measurement of how many people are trying to improve paired with when there is 128 players every day playing the server. Many of them can be anybody and not just people trying to improve. There are cheaters and countless types of rule breaks which are counted in that number but you act like they're equivalent to every player trying to improve granted you even know who is trying to improve.

 

[KeiwaM]

I got a perm ban for hiding a gun in the PD toilets as SWAT and breaking back in for it as a civ

I got a warning for hitting a wall with a nightstick.

 

[Sorle]

I got a perm ban for hiding a gun in the PD toilets as SWAT and breaking back in for it as a civ

i got a year ban for getting mugged

 

[MalekIsWeird]

I got a warning for hitting a wall with a nightstick.

This you?

 

[KeiwaM]

This you?

View attachment 15480

si, although I don't recall that being the actual ban reason.

 

[rxsm]

i got a year ban for getting mugged

shouldve broken 3.4 and taken the day ban