Action Request (Acerius)

[Frankie Rankin]

Your Steam Name: Frankie Rankin
Your Roleplay Name: Frankie Rankin
Your SteamID: STEAM_0:1:173636863

Player's Steam Name: Acerius
Player's Roleplay Name: Acer Joseph
Player's SteamID: STEAM_0:0:83316799

Why should this player be punished?: The user broke rule 5.3 also possibly 3.5, he died in a raid and proceeded to come back and kill me. The user was killed midway through the raid and once I was leaving carrying guns the user decided to kill me. The user possibly used past life info to know he was being raided because there were no survivors.

Evidence Link:

 

[A1L]

Updated with logs, @Acerius your side of the situation please

 

[Acerius]

In responding to this, I will attempt to give as detailed of a description as possible. I have included my demo and at each relevant section I will include a tick timestamp as well as a description and commentary of the situation. Before I begin, I would like to make clear my understanding of the Rules which have been cited.

The first Rule which has been cited is the following:
​

5.3 Raiding
Civilians are not allowed to raid, or assist others who are raiding, an occupied property more than 2 times in a 60 minute period, or raid the same property more than once in a 60 minute period. If a civilian has died whilst raiding a property, they must wait 1 hour after they have respawned before attempting to raid, or assist others in raiding that property. Players who died whilst being raided may also not return to the situation until it has finished. Players are only permitted to use 2 bombs per raid, timed or remote. This does not include grenades.​

The accuser claims that I broke rule 5.3 as I “died in a raid and proceeded to come back and kill me” and that I died “midway through the raid”. As per my understanding Rule 5.3 provides clarification for those who are engaged in raiding a property, and that the time restrictions of 1 hour after or more than once/twice in a 60 minute period do not apply to me as I would be classed as a defender. Secondly, the Rule states that:
​

…players who died whilst being raided may also not return to the situation until it has finished.​

As I will be able to prove with my demo, I would have had no knowledge of when the situation had finished. This is for two reasons:

1) I had no communication that the situation had ended, either from raiders or defenders. There were no Police Broadcasts or cordons in the area before, during, or after my return. I would have had no knowledge of when the situation had finished.

2) As you will see from my demo, I had no vision of the raiders themselves whatsoever. I would have not been able to identify them before, during, or after the raid. I shot blindly through a barricaded door and was teamkilled by a fellow defender who was unable to identify me. As I had no vision of the defenders, upon my eventual return I would not have been able to identify them as existing raiders and know that the situation was on-going. In a similar vein, the only person who I could have identified reasonably at any given point was Kian Wolf: this is because I heard his voice as the raid commenced, and during the second raid which I will detail later. All of this can be seen within the demo.

The second Rule which has been cited is the following:
​

3.5 New Life Rule
When a player has died In Character, and after they have re-spawned, they must wait at least 5 minutes (a countdown is provided) before they may either return to the place where they died and/or interact with the situation. They must also treat their re-spawn as a new life. A system is in place to inform players that they are in breach of this rule, any attempt to bypass this system will not be tolerated. Joining or leaving any government job is to be treated as a new life.

While waiting for their NLR timer to run out, players should not wait in the vicinity of their NLR zone and should stay a reasonable distance away.

When a player is given a new life they must forget/may not act upon any and all details of their previous life; this excludes properties and cars that they own, government positions that they hold and any friends or acquaintances that they have/had made.

Players should not use or act upon any information gained from other players which is relevant to their previous death, while their NLR timer is active.​

I did not break any aspect of Rule 3.5. I waited approximately 5 minutes before I returned to the vicinity of Glass Co, and as you can see by the timestamps in the logs over 10 minutes had elapsed before I re-interacted with the situation. I did not wait in the vicinity of Glass Co and instead interacted with my vehicle, as well as Suburbs Storage, one of which is explicitly excluded from the rule and one which is implicitly excluded.

I will also deal with these specific aspects of Rule 3.5:
​

When a player is given a new life, they must forget/may not act upon any and all details of their previous life…​

​

Players should not use or act upon any information gained from other players which is relevant to their previous death, while their NLR timer is active.​

As you can see from the demo and as I have previously alluded to, there were no Police Broadcasts or cordons in the area. This means that I upon my return after the NLR timer, I would have had no indication as to whether the situation had concluded or not. In addition to this, I did not receive any communication in-game as to whether the situation had concluded. This includes after the raid when I respawned: there were no text messages, organisation chat messages, or otherwise which would suggest that the relevant raiders were still at the property and that I should act.

I also mentioned that I would have been unable to identify any of the relevant raiders visually as I had blindly shot through a barricaded door and been teamkilled. This means that I would have been unable, upon my return, to have used information from my previous life to know that the person I had seen and killed (the accuser) was part of that same raid. As you will also see from the demo, I identified a non-allied (non-friendly) person upon my return to Glass Co who is the accuser. I will explain below as to why I would have known beyond all reasonable doubt that this person was not friendly and not associated with myself or any of the defenders in any way, shape, or form.

Now that I have clarified my understanding of the Rules which can be interpreted as being either correct or incorrect, I will give my version of events:



Background - Tick: 6832
I arrived at Glass Co to base with an allied organisation and one member from my own organisation. The two organisations are: The Red Family and The Royals. The base had already been built and I had no influence over its design. The Red Family and the Royals both have distinct uniforms: bright red, and British racing green. This excludes two new members to The Red Family who were new players and in default clothing, and a new member of The Royals who was wearing all-black. As you can see from the interior of Glass Co, there are no windows showing the external environs and there would be no way to visually identify any person whilst inside the building unless a door had been opened.

Raid Commences – Tick: 42300
The raid commences at this time where it can be observed in Local chat a “hello motherfuckers” and the use of PLPD binds. While I do not know whether the use of PLPD binds is allowed during raids, specifically the use of (PLPD Speakers) at the beginning of a callout, this was when I knew the raid had commenced. I was only able to discern one voice outside which I would later become aware is that of Kian Wolf (Mina).

As you can see from the demo, I moved into the second room and then moved back into the growing room after I heard gunshots and bullet droppings behind me. At no point during this movement was I able to visually identify any of the raiders as they had not yet entered the property. As there was shooting through the barricaded door as can be seen in the demo, I shot blindly through the barricaded door in a return fire.

My Death – Tick: 43000
As you can see, I am shooting blindly through the barricaded door. Due to the volume of shooting and noise during the raid, I would have had no indication as to whether I have hit somebody. This is further amplified by the fact that my teammate (a new player as part of The Red Family), who is standing behind the defence next to the door, begins to shoot at me. This causes me to lose health very quickly and subsequently die as he continues to shoot me until death.

As you can see by the tick times, this was in no way midway through the raid. I died extremely early on, and while I have no knowledge of exactly how long the raid lasted, it is clear to me that I would not have known who the raiders were or what they looked like, and whether the situation ended.

Arrive Back at Glass Co – Tick: 55265
Upon respawning, I go to City Garage and get my car back which is allowed within the Rules. I go to Suburbs storage and retrieve a weapon, which is implicitly allowed as per Rule 3.5. From 4300 to 55265 during my journey, it is clear that there is no communication from anyone either by text message, organisation chat, or Police Broadcast that there is a situation on-going at Glass Co/Business District and that I should stay clear of the area.

As such I make my way back to the property for which I have keys and chest access, which can be described as being “owned”. Leading up to my return at Glass Co, there are no vehicles outside the barriers to Glass Co in the road nor a police cordon. Thus, I would have not known that the raid was continuing nor whether the original raiders were still there.

At this point, my NLR had completely gone which can be seen from the time elapsed in the logs. One can not reasonably expect, if there is no indication outside the property by virtue of vehicles on the road or a police cordon, for a layman to know that a situation is on-going. I also have mitigating circumstances in-respect that as I did not see any of the original raiders, nor their vehicles before or during the raid, that I would have known upon my return if they were still there.

Non-Friendly Identified – Tick: 55354
After my slow approach to Glass Co which would allow reasonable time, even after my NLR has ended, for vehicles to leave the property, I turned into the car wash and observed the accuser standing by a vehicle with a weapon on his back. I am unsure whether this is visible in the demo but the accuser was wearing bright baby blue, including a blue baseball cap. I spent over a minute observing the accuser in-order to satisfy myself that they were not a friendly individual and that they should not be on the property. I watched them put the weapon in the trunk and move to the rear of Glass Co.

Still, I had not received any information as to whether the situation was on-going. As I have alluded to multiple times, I would not have any information from my previous life as to who the original raiders were. At this point, all that was certain to me (by virtue of the information on uniforms and clothing I had given in the background) was that this individual that I had now identified outside of Glass Co, and who subsequently entered the rear of the property, had no right nor interest to be there.

Voices Inside – Tick: 56500(ish)
As I walked past the side of the property, I could hear voices inside of the building. I had not heard this voice or been able to discern it before, during or after the initial raid and thus it would not have informed me as to whether it was the initial raiders. The content of the voice I heard, to the description of that drugs were nearly finished, led me to believe that this person was either raiding or stealing from the property.

I subsequently moved inside the property in-order to secure it, and as I walked in the property, I saw there were weapons on the ground. As I had already seen the accuser with a weapon on his back it was unclear to me whether he was unarmed, or armed. I moved quickly around the corner as he was calling out on his phone and killed him.

This occurred as you can see per the timestamps and the logs well over 10 minutes after I had died. This would have meant my NLR had elapsed. Per this and all the other previous statements I have given with regards to not knowing who the original raiders are, and no indication of whether the raid had fully ceased, I see this as fair and just.

It cannot be reasonably expected for me to wait more than 10 minutes before I re-enter the property and shoot a person who has been identified as non-friendly, by: their clothing; having a weapon on their back; and entering the property without permission, when there is no such indication that the original raiders are still there.

I will now go onto more information which is relevant but immaterial to this action request against me, which I will use in my own action request.

Second Raid Begins – Tick: 62000
Significant time, as seen by the timestamps, had elapsed before I re-secured the property and killed an intruder. At this point you can hear in the demo, I heard crowbarring of the door. I raised my weapon in preparation for a second raid, when:

Same Raider Identified – 63000
I hear a voice which is the same as that of Kian Wolf (Mina) who I heard previously during the first raid. At this point, it would be clear that through the time it took me to walk up to Glass Co, and with 10 minutes having elapsed, that the accuser was the only other person at the property or in its environs at this time.

As such, it is clear to me that in-fact Kian Wolf (Mina) himself broke Rule 5.3 as with the significant elapse of time, well over 15/20 minutes since the original raid commenced, that this would count as a second raid. As per Rule 5.3, which I shall quote:
​

Civilians are not allowed to raid, or assist others who are raiding, an occupied property more than 2 times in a 60 minute period, or raid the same property more than once in a 60 minute period.​

While it is not clear to me whether Kian Wolf had died during the original raid which would also enforce a 60-minute time limit on his return, I would strongly argue the following:

1) that the length of time I spent outside of Glass Co upon my return observing the accuser, as well as the property and its environs,

2) the length of time since the original raid had commenced, and my NLR having ended a significant time after returning to the property and re-securing it,

3) as well as all previous information I have mentioned,

…that Kian Wolf himself broke Rule 5.3 as him returning to the property after me killing the accuser, would be classed as a second raid within a 60 minute period which contravenes the Rule. There was no indication that he was inside Glass Co or near its environs at the time upon which I re-entered, that he was still in an appropriate vicinity for him to be classed as still in an on-going situation.
As the accuser had his phone out when I shot him, Kian Wolf used this information given over the phone to conclude that someone had returned and that he should re-raid the property.

In Conclusion
As per all the information I have given which is true and accurate to what can be observed in the demo, it is my view that I did not break any of the Rules cited nor any additional Rules which may not have been cited. I acted fairly and proportionally, and in a manner which reflects the possible actions of any other ordinary player who may have been in a similar situation. I do not believe that it can be expected of any reasonable player to know, when they have not been given any information whatsoever, nor gained any visual or auditory information, that the situation is still on-going and that they should not return.

The link for the demo can be accessed through my OneDrive, which I will send to A1L in a private conversation as my OneDrive has personal identifying information. I will endeavour to update this reply with a download link which can be accessed by anybody should they wish to view it.​

 

[Acerius]

In-fact the OneDrive link does not appear to show any personal details and thus I will include it here.

 

[Leo]

Frankie said in OOC that the situation was ongoing.

 

[Acerius]

In response to @Leo while this may seem correct, you have given no context or timings as to when he gave such information. I will add screenshots here and describe it for you, to make it easier for the benefit of anyone following this thread.

At the point in which Frankie says in OOC "glasco owners wait a few mins", my NLR had ended and over 10 minutes had elapsed since I had died. It cannot be reasonably expected for any person to wait, after this length of time, with a notice put in OOC at over 10 minutes after the original raid had commenced, to wait an even further length of time.

After my death and during my NLR, leading up to just after my NLR ended, there was only commentary and arguing in OOC:







At no point after my death and during my NLR, did anyone make any indication that the situation was on-going at Glass Co. There was only bickering about what HAD happened and accusations against different people.

This can be verified with the demo itself. Now, onto the "notice" that Frankie gave that you have alluded do. I have included an entire screenshot to give the context which you have not provided:

As you can see, when Frankie gives this "notice", I am already back inside the building. Frankie is just beyond that corner there, and at this point in the demo I have already begun sprinting which can be verified. This, as well as the exact point in time in which the OOC message breaks through, is all quite evident in the demo I have provided.

You cannot reasonably expect that after 10 minutes have elapsed:
1) with my NLR having ended,
2) with me having identified a non-friendly individual on the property as I alluded to in my response,
3) and that when I have WALKED up to the building in silence, adding even more time to the matter.

...that this message in OOC given after I am already back in the building was reasonable. IF Frankie had given more reasonable notice in OOC and had done so before I had entered the building and before I had already begun sprinting around the corner, then maybe I would hold my hands up and say yes you are correct. But in this instance, I must strongly disagree.

 

[Acerius]

I have responded directly to you below.

 

[Misel]

Acerius did indeed break 5.3 by returning to the same raid. In your statement @Acerius you admit to this in your response and in your own action request so you will be receiving a warning for your actions. Because this is the same situation as the action request you made yourself I'll just mention this here as well. The raid in Glass Co was still ongoing but Mina did not break the rules as you stated in your explanation of the situation. However, Mina did die in the raid and then returned to the same raid, the same as you did, and therefore @Mina will also be receiving a warning

Reviewed with @Dank