Server Suggestion Remove bunker designs in bases + make bobbies quieter

Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
Suggestion Title: Remove bunker designs in bases + make bobbies quieter
Suggestion Description:

prenote: I don't think that raiding properties as cop is hard, regardless of (legal) defense. That just takes brain and you lose if you don't push as a civilian, overtime. I do raise a point that it is tedious and makes shootouts last too long.


1. Completely remove construction booklet on designs only and impose hard-limits on how many of certain defence prop can be placed in an apartment, heavily nerfing the amount of overall props you can use, scaling with small to big properties.
It would look like this:

Apartments total - 1 metal detector, 2 barricades, 2 fences, 2 spotlights, 1 bookshelf
Glassco/Parker/Morons total - 5 barricades, 3 fences, 3 spotlights, 3 bookshelves
Office total - 6 barricades, 4 fences, 4 spotlights, 4 bookshelves

etc, with numbers being a variable (higher or lower) agreed upon by the community management. Wooden fences can only block windows.

Ultimate goal - prevent bunker designs from all properties.

2. Make bobbies EVEN quieter - it is possible to catch people off guard with a bobby pin, however, to prove more useful than crowbars, I believe a buff adding considerable sound reduction should be put. Not everyone wanting to be a criminal and break into apartments has 10 people to back them up, or maybe they don't want to. Using a crowbar and even a bobby pin now will be heard by occupants from anywhere in property, and they will call police.

Bobbies should only be heard if you're directly or 1-2 people away from the source.

Why should this be added?:
Benefits for suggestion 1 (removing booklet and preventing bunkers and basewars):

1. No more bunkers with insanely complicated defenses that are "valid" because two people can fit through or one guy can peek with his shoulders.
2. No more shootouts lasting for eons because "omg lol you're cop push in" into 5 people playing peekaboo crouching and standing up to shoot you into big barricades that "don't" force movement, when the metal detector sound queue plays.
Same goes for doing so as a civilian (which is even worse).
3. No more forcing bombs to be used in order to have a "fair" ground, heavily losing on profits that you would get for beating the people basing as a civilian (that already have upper hand) and then the 12 cops flanking you, effectively putting you on a timer for most properties where if you don't push in, you get sandwiched.
4. Make raiding way more viable, as everyone and their mother can hear bobby/crowbar and will call 12 policemen to flank you, which sometimes not even proper strategy or organization beats IF they're moderately competent.
5. As a police force, you don't have to devote 20 minutes and all resources into one shootout because your fellow TFU colleagues failed the coinflip push against 5 people, while on the other side of the city there's 2 people getting mugged, run over, and someone getting beat up. Have you ever seen a fully bunkered office/glassco base?
6. Flashbangs are now way more viable for police and civilians.
7. Allows balance between defending and raiding, while still allowing defenders to have an upper hand and police to help out, as intended.

Benefits for suggestions 2 (buffing bobby pins):

1. A more competent way of raiding where you don't want to alert police, or can't afford to.
2. Bobby pin is as useful (almost) as crowbar. You will still get wallbanged by people near-ish the doors in properties
3. Now you can actually break in silently.

What negatives could this have?:
- Powergrowing community can no longer enjoy bunkers
- Bobby pin beats crowbar (however you are still prone to being wallbanged as bobbypin freezes you in animation)
- Muh items
 
Last edited:
Messages
1,379
Reaction score
2,046
Points
770
Location
Moscow
Wtf no lol, parker is already so exposed as it is. Putting restrictions on amount of props would just completely invalidate the property and nobody would use it. Defenders are already at a massive disadvantage if cops raid you
 
Messages
376
Reaction score
558
Points
500
Location
Nowhere Important
Defending vs cops is already aids as it is with nlr rule where cops can return after nlr but civs cant. Making it so you cant even defend in the first place makes it so noone wastes time ig


image_2022-02-02_181615.png
ig ur trying to go for 100%
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
Defending vs cops is already aids as it is with nlr rule where cops can return after nlr but civs cant. Making it so you cant even defend in the first place makes it so noone wastes time ig

What's your proposition to prevent 20-30 minute long shootouts then?
As a cop, I can devote 8 people to push and then 6 people to hold, rinse and repeat. If you don't have a flanker, you will not enjoy pushing through one (or two) doors.
This doesn't spark joy, you will have to push either way against police, in this case.
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
Wtf no lol, parker is already so exposed as it is. Putting restrictions on amount of props would just completely invalidate the property and nobody would use it. Defenders are already at a massive disadvantage if cops raid you

Tunnel vision league player I am the same way sometimes.
numbers can be adjusted, but bunkers should not be a thing.
 
Messages
376
Reaction score
558
Points
500
Location
Nowhere Important
What's your proposition to prevent 20-30 minute long shootouts then?
As a cop, I can devote 8 people to push and then 6 people to hold, rinse and repeat. If you don't have a flanker, you will not enjoy pushing through one (or two) doors.
This doesn't spark joy, you will have to push either way against police, in this case.

20 minutes is literally fuck all for a shootout. If u want to just giga stomp defenders then you do you but noone really bases as it is so ur just trying to make it so 0 defenders have fun ig. Youre raiding for a reason, its meant to be difficult, which it kinda isnt rn for cops. You dont see civs complaining about the bases when raiding so why should cops when they are even more advantaged. You might as well suggest not being able to use rifles as civ at this point.

if anything reinstate 2016 building so i can have my wood ramps back :)
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
20 minutes is literally fuck all for a shootout. If u want to just giga stomp defenders then you do you but noone really bases as it is so ur just trying to make it so 0 defenders have fun ig. Youre raiding for a reason, its meant to be difficult, which it kinda isnt rn for cops. You dont see civs complaining about the bases when raiding so why should cops when they are even more advantaged. You might as well suggest not being able to use rifles as civ at this point.

I never said raiding as a cop is difficult, I don't know where you got this from.
I said it's tedious and takes too long, if you lose the coinflip at the start. Then you hold with the remainder of the forces (and the defenders defend) until a new wave comes. It's fuck all easy if you have any resource management skills, they will have to push into you.
What prevents me as a cop to turtle with 10 officers and make 6 push repeatedly? Nothing at all.
I am complaining from a civ standpoint, where they cannot come back, and are forced to use bombs to have an even ground (assuming equal-ish defenders and raiders), while police can come back.
The only reason it is rather easy for police to raid defenders is because they can come back, as you said.
 
Messages
1,016
Reaction score
1,671
Points
760
Wtf no lol, parker is already so exposed as it is. Putting restrictions on amount of props would just completely invalidate the property and nobody would use it. Defenders are already at a massive disadvantage if cops raid you
But civ have ak :( if cops can’t win 100% of the time because they are stupid rush in and can’t aim it’s not fair!
 
Messages
376
Reaction score
558
Points
500
Location
Nowhere Important
I never said raiding as a cop is difficult, I don't know where you got this from.
I said it's tedious and takes too long, if you lose the coinflip at the start. Then you hold with the remainder of the forces (and the defenders defend) until a new wave comes. It's fuck all easy if you have any resource management skills, they will have to push into you.
I am complaining from a civ standpoint, where they cannot come back, while police can.
The only reason it is rather easy for police to raid defenders is because they can come back, as you said.
I never said it was difficult either, I said it should be. If you wont admit its difficult then the change isn't needed.

The fact that cops can simply wait for new waves is the reason why every cop raid is already balanced towards them. You are literally arguing our point by saying that it makes it easy. Defenders in 90% of the situations should have the upper hand, that's how defending works.

Also, raids are not even that long. Considering most people who main crim and will come from a background playing fps where you're in a game for 40 mins + I don't think they really care how long it takes as long as they have the best chance of winning. Which waiting literally does the opposite. Its already encouraged to have short raids because of the NLR rule and you're just trying to make them shorter.

If these changes were put in all they would do is make either 0 people base when no one really does nowadays as I've said before or it would make properties require a remake to make them somewhat playable with these prop limits.
 

maeen

Communication Banned
Messages
354
Reaction score
209
Points
485
Location
Faroe Islands
So from what I understand, you want shootouts to last 2 minutes, where the police, and raiders always win? So there is no real difficulty in raiding properties for the raiders? It should just be a stop and go, come back later, thanks kind of thing?
 
Messages
612
Reaction score
1,250
Points
580
Location
United Kingdom
As the first post got removed I will rewrite it in a 'rule-abiding way' two barricades in an apartment makes no sense? 1 double barricade is fit for 1-2 people max and considering 2-6 people sit in an apartment that won’t work.

Glass Co parker and moron Could not be defended with 5 barricades 3 fences 3 spotlights and 3 bookshelves in any sense no matter how you build it.

Won’t even talk about office cuz from what I have heard no one uses it anymore.

Bases are not ‘insanely complicated’ at all and if people are peeking with only their shoulders then you should know that defence breaks the rules!

What's your proposition to prevent 20-30 minute long shootouts then
If you have a problem with a raid lasting 30 minutes then quite honestly stop playing cop or civ because 30 minutes isn't long at all and even if it is there is no way to fix it without giving either side a huge nerf.


The only reason it is rather easy for police to raid defenders is because they can come back, as you said.
I never said raiding as a cop is difficult, I don't know where you got this from.
1643826912080.png
and using these 3 quotes above you 2 from this thread you are saying that you DON'T need a nurf at all because it's 'easy' and isn't difficult. you just don't seem to have an attention span of more than 30 minutes and all you want is to raid different apartments quicker and win 100% of the time.
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
So from what I understand, you want shootouts to last 2 minutes, where the police, and raiders always win? So there is no real difficulty in raiding properties for the raiders? It should just be a stop and go, come back later, thanks kind of thing?

Yes, when I said shorter from 30 minutes, I was hoping it would be 2 minutes specifically (even less hopefully), and only 1 barricade per property so that raiders cannot lose at all.


The other guy, I won't quote you but tl;dr is:

1. Raiders (civ) are at a disadvantage as they are facing defenders playing peekaboo in bunkers, and 12 cops flanking for the defenders, using bomb sometimes being forced.
2. Raiders (cop) shootouts that initially lose the coinflip are not hard, they just need to wait, and require resources for too long while there's other crime happening at the city.
3. Raiders (civ) do not care about how long it takes, I assume neither do defenders. But police (police) needs to be at other parts of the city too, and at low police count, this is sometimes not possible for a long time.
 
Messages
681
Reaction score
773
Points
780
Location
London
in most of my bases, I tend to have 1 double-stacked barricade, 1 light and 1 bookshelf and still manage to win defending. Reducing the amount of props is definitely possible and anyone who says otherwise then that's just a skill issue tbh
 
Messages
612
Reaction score
1,250
Points
580
Location
United Kingdom
1. Raiders (civ) are at a disadvantage as they are facing defenders playing peekaboo in bunkers, and 12 cops flanking for the defenders, using bomb sometimes being forced.
Weird I haven't seen anyone complain about bases when raiding they actually complain that they get flanked by 6 cops and 6 tfu when trying to raid as 3 people

3. Raiders (civ) do not care about how long it takes, I assume neither do defenders. But police (police) needs to be at other parts of the city too, and at low police count, this is sometimes not possible for a long time.
'low police count' is not our fault so not much we can do about that?

in most of my bases, I tend to have 1 double-stacked barricade, 1 light and 1 bookshelf and still manage to win defending. Reducing the amount of props is definitely possible and anyone who says otherwise then that's just a skill issue tbh
Not possible, you base as 1 person so 1 double barricade may work for you but when you have 4 people in an app it doesn't work you need more than 2 barricades and then you have something like parker (Build to hold big groups) and all I'm allowed is 2 double barricades and nothing else as the wooden boards would be used to block a garage entrance it makes no sense...
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
If you have a problem with a raid lasting 30 minutes then quite honestly stop playing cop or civ because 30 minutes isn't long at all and even if it is there is no way to fix it without giving either side a huge nerf.




View attachment 13132
and using these 3 quotes above you 2 from this thread you are saying that you DON'T need a nurf at all because it's 'easy' and isn't difficult. you just don't seem to have an attention span of more than 30 minutes and all you want is to raid different apartments quicker and win 100% of the time.

Despite the way you type, you in essence rose some valid points. For you, 30 minutes in a shootout as police is not long. For me, it is, and I think there's a good amount of other people who don't enjoy being in shootouts that long, as police. Some defences accompanied with lots of people is just too hard to actually commit to push and win in one go. Don't get me wrong, some shootouts can actually be 5 minutes if you get the initial push off as cop, or win early(not all shootouts are this long, but this is why we don't deal in absolutes).

It isn't difficult, as police, in my opinion. What it can do is create tedious environments where many people stack watching one doorway properties. But this would bring us to our original point of what you and I consider "long" and "tedious" shootouts, where the rest of the city calls get put on hold, as if it is constant terrorist attacks.

I understand your frustration on why you think this nerf would kill properties, that's why I said the numbers are variable and won't address those points you made. I don't wish to invalidate defences, but I do wish for them to be nerfed, to allow CIVILIAN raiders to push in more easily, while still allowing defenders the upperhand.
 
Messages
681
Reaction score
773
Points
780
Location
London
Not possible, you base as 1 person so 1 double barricade may work for you but when you have 4 people in an app it doesn't work you need more than 2 barricades and then you have something like parker (Build to hold big groups) and all I'm allowed is 2 double barricades and nothing else as the wooden boards would be used to block a garage entrance it makes no sense...
I've based with a few people using said defense, even in a subs house.
Why is there a real need to bombard your property with props? I don't necessarily think it should be enforced although I am 100% fewer props is possible.
 
Messages
999
Reaction score
2,062
Points
800
Location
Basement
I've based with a few people using said defense, even in a subs house.
Why is there a real need to bombard your property with props? I don't necessarily think it should be enforced although I am 100% fewer props is possible.

Precisely.
There doesn't need to be a bombardment of 4-5 double stacked concrete barricades (fence+bookshelf+spotlight) and metal detector sound queue in one apartment for it to be viable and for defenders to have the upperhand.
 
Messages
612
Reaction score
1,250
Points
580
Location
United Kingdom
CIVILIAN raiders
Well as a Civ raider myself I have not had 1 friend complain about raiding a base (no matter what property it is) because of the 'bunker' defence that is useable if it follows the rules. All that is complained about is 6 TFU and 6 normal cops (some with remis) flanking us. it's the cops that need a nerf if your serious concern is actually civilians...
 
Top