Revert Rule 5.4 to Previous state.

[LEWIS 088]

What rule do you wish to Edit/Add:

5.4 City Employees
Under most circumstance paramedics may not be killed. The only exception to this rule is where the medic has failed to follow reasonable orders given under gunpoint (i.e. a medic must be given orders to leave before shooting)), furthermore Paramedics are not allowed to revive players an unrealistic amount of times. Players may not attempt to take and/or demand money or items from a City Employee. This rule excludes job related items e.g. Police Radio.


Your version of the rule:

5.4 City Employees

Players may not attempt to take and/or demand money or items from a City Employee. This rule excludes job related items e.g. Police Radio. All current "jobs" are classed as City Employees


Why do you believe this rule should be Added/Edited:

Paramedics are government officials, their word is evidence enough to get you charged with a crime by the police. If they come to close to a crime scene it's there own fault if they get killed.

 

[Photon]

Under most circumstance paramedics may not be killed. The only exception to this rule is where the medic has failed to follow reasonable orders given under gunpoint (i.e. a medic must be given orders to leave before shooting))

So basically they have to break 3.4 so we can kill them? What?

furthermore Paramedics are not allowed to revive players an unrealistic amount of times.

What's considered an unrealistic amount of times? 2, 4, 5, 7?
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I agree with Lewis on this, it should be reverted back to the original version and that the current one is too vague and unclear.

 

[Creepis]

I'll just copy paste my rant from the conversation

Good rule but needs few adjustments/rewording like medics can be killed if they obviously know that the crime scene can be heard miles away from town with tons of fucking gun shots around(assuming they have a brain and not a brocoli head), they know in what kind of danger they're putting themselves into. If we're allowed to shoot civilians sticking around a shootout that can do the same as a medic (less trusted but can get evidence/call 911) then why not be allowed to kill medics too?. I might sound salty af but I'm just trying to continue a healthy beef discussion here xd

 

[JARRE]

Doesnt this shit get discussed with the staff team before implementen lol?

 

[Photon]

"Good rule but needs few adjustments/rewording like medics can be killed if they obviously know that the crime scene can be heard miles away from town with tons of fucking gun shots around(assuming they have a brain and not a brocoli head), they know in what kind of danger they're putting themselves into. If we're allowed to shoot civilians sticking around a shootout that can do the same as a medic (less trusted but can get evidence/call 911) then why not be allowed to kill medics too?. I might sound salty af but I'm just trying to continue a healthy beef discussion here xd""

It shouldn't even be in the rule that they can't get killed, they're not supposed to be on scene in the first place.

Quoted from the rules:

"
4.2 Paramedics
Typically, Paramedics may not enter a crime scene if it has not yet been secured by law-enforcement personnel. Paramedics cannot at any time patrol the city but may park at places such as the Fire Department, Police Station, Hospital, other sensible non crowded area’s and wait to be called out, this excludes Paramedics using the First Responder vehicle, if they are using it they may patrol. Paramedics must inform Police Officers if they have treated wounds which have been inflicted as a result of a crime, for example, gunshot wounds."

 

[Walker]

I'll also post my reply from a forum pm, in response to anyone arguing that medics were manhunted or something along them lines.

Then get rid of the rule and ban people that manhunt medics for risking their life. You are ruining stuff by trying to solve a specific problem and instead of targetting said problem are blanket basically banning medics from dying.

 

[John Valli]

I agree about returning the old rule.
I almost got warned for it.

 

[Thomas DeSimone]

Everytime I shoot someone somehow a medic shows up around the corner, as soon as they see you with the gun you know they have to snitch, leaving them to rat you out to the police should be 3.4 if anything should be a rulebreak.

 

[.....]

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...ice-revive-same-man-from-an-overdose-20-times I hope 20 is enough

 

[Smeris]

furthermore Paramedics are not allowed to revive players an unrealistic amount of times.

give this shit a number or something because you're gonna have diffrent opinions from staff and one will say 2, one will say 20 so unless @Garret_Pp knows that shit or something remove it because its plain stupid. You're gonna have medics not reviving people because they will fear a warning now while you will have 10 people screaming: "REVIVE HIM MEDIC YOU RETARD REVIVE REEEEE"

 

[THE SPOOK]

give this shit a number or something because you're gonna have diffrent opinions from staff and one will say 2, one will say 20 so unless @Garret_Pp knows that shit or something remove it because its plain stupid. You're gonna have medics not reviving people because they will fear a warning now while you will have 10 people screaming: "REVIVE HIM MEDIC YOU RETARD REVIVE REEEEE"

Use 5 as a number then if you need a number lol

get a timespan for it or a counter on the dead people aswell then. or make them unrevivable after 5 times in a certain time.
because how the fuck are you supposed to know how many times someone has been revived when they are unconscious?
this way it will prevent people that do not like you or if you are being targeted by some people (yes this happens, can't deny it.) from making a report like "he revived me 6 times!!!! community wide ban pls" and it will just genuinly prevent you from breaking the rules by accident.

 

[Generic Twat]

To be honest, this rule is more vague than the youtube community guidelines. What is 'an unrealistic ammount'? 5, 7, 2, 60, 21?
It's retarded how we can't kill medics because it's unfair. Whats next? Can't kill police officers because it would be unfair? If a medic wonders into a shoot-out and gets killed, boo-hoo, your own fault.
Medics are probably the most important asset to the government. If a cop is killed, he can be revived, therefor killing their only source of revival is a realistic and fair action in my opinion.
+support
@MrLewis @Bolli

 

[Sonzy]

In my opinon i doubt that the most part of this new rule will even be enforced, although i agree that it should not be allowed anymore to KOS medics along with other govournment officials, i think that it should be perfectly fine to kill them while they are in the process of reviving a cop you just killed.

End of the day, i get the rules intentions of making the medic job less of a go to a situation and die instantly kinda thing but in my eyes the bigger problem is that most people who go medic just don't have the experience in the server to know when is and isn't a good time to revive cops and when to drive to an active shootout or not.
Although there's no easy solution to this, i think the problems in training and not the division itself. Maybe a buff and a whitelist along with a heirachy and new features could turn the medic job around to something to enjoy and take seriously.

 

[John Daymon]

get a timespan for it or a counter on the dead people aswell then. or make them unrevivable after 5 times in a certain time.
because how the fuck are you supposed to know how many times someone has been revived when they are unconscious?
this way it will prevent people that do not like you or if you are being targeted by some people (yes this happens, can't deny it.) from making a report like "he revived me 6 times!!!! community wide ban pls" and it will just genuinly prevent you from breaking the rules by accident.

Obviously a stupid reply by me, It obviously Depends on how the person died, if they got shot up and such - 2 or whatever, then if they get run over or fall to Death I'd say 5. Just My thoughts

 

[John Daymon]

You are absolutely right, just your thoughts. Shitty rule, shitty defined, and will only cause problems.
Another staff will say 10 and others will say 1. I am impressed that after all the "to admin discretion" bullshit, we still get new rules with the same kind of bullshit, do you guys never learn from experience?

I agree with that the rule is not worded in a way where players always know, I agree that there should be a set rate of how many times, or it could just be adjusted by some coding where a change in the rules wouldn't be necessary, what i then mean is if you die twice in your life you will get instantly blackscreened or something like that?

 

[Niko]

You are absolutely right, just your thoughts. Shitty rule, shitty defined, and will only cause problems.
Another staff will say 10 and others will say 1.

It will cause a lot of problems indeed. This is a rule that should not be left simply to staff discretion, as it'll prove an inconsistency. Imagine that I one day am told by a member of staff that 7 times is considered an unrealistic amount, and I proceed to be punished for reviving the same person 5 times the next day because the staff member has a different opinion on that.

A proper way to enforce this rule would be to give an exact amount. Or even better, implement a feature on the server that puts you directly to the "passed away" state when you reach, for example, your sixth death (i.e. already revived 5 times). Simply saying "an unrealistic amount of times" is too vague.

 

[✿ Squeeker Melon ✿]

To me it's another red light that the staff team arent looking at community feedback especially with this ban discretion stuff..

 

[Wotsit]

I totally agree with you LEWIS008. Just a few days ago I was involved in a situation where a medic was grassing my org in for shooting someone. (This was from him patrolling in a full size fml). Of course the cops tried to raid us because "We have to take the government employees word for it" It then ended badly for the medics when I threw a grenade at them. I totally agree that we should be able to kill medics because its fucking bullshit when you're being raided by cops and when you kill one the rest of the PD get the medic to revive the unconscious cop mid gunfight. I honestly don't see how medics are being banned for 3.4 when they run into the middle of a gunfight and start reviving people. (I know this is going to get some dumb ratings from some salty people but I honestly do not give a fuck)

 

[Garret_Pp]

I am not commenting on the law itself but I want to bring in a more medical perspective here that may confuse you even more but bear with me here on the medical terms, you should get the point I am making:

To start, this has one very simple Tl;Dr;, it depends on the case but we go until we can't.
I mean obviously reviving somebody isn't just about shocking them (well except when it is) but it also depends on what they are dying of, their history, response to a code, etc. For example, we had a person who had cardiac arrhythmia who devolved into V-Tac who we coded with CPR, pushed general meds like Epi, and shocked. Third shock she game to at 200J with mild confusion (though admitted w hx of confusion as she had a similar cardiac event -1 yr earlier). She crashed again ~40 minutes later and we coded her again then because we thought she could be fine, got her back and everything was fine. Admit for recovery discharge w updated meds.

Compare that to a guy who seems beyond saving who you code for 15 minutes and seems to come back. If he crashes again, you do your best but if he came to after 15 min he is probably too far gone the second time, but that doesn't mean you stop.

Then even compare that to people who crash 3+ times in a 24 hour period that make it to discharge still.

I wouldn't be opposed to expanding out medical system to have more direct treatment for afflictions like a gunshot wound in comparison to broken legs or a car crash, hell I'll champion that effort. But really unless we expand our system to have different player based responses to trauma, paramedics are going to have a hard time deciding personally as they have no real medical training to draw off of.

Main point 1:
Paramedics don't really understand the medical implications of their actions of the severity of illnesses. (For example most people think if you're shot in the head you're a gonner, but actually you have a real fighting chance still).

Main point 2:
In medicine, you keep reviving until the patient stops, not yourself.

Draw off this what you will, but that is my 10 cents.



Or just give the paramedics this

 

[M]

I am not commenting on the law itself but I want to bring in a more medical perspective here that may confuse you even more but bear with me here on the medical terms, you should get the point I am making:

To start, this has one very simple Tl;Dr;, it depends on the case but we go until we can't.
I mean obviously reviving somebody isn't just about shocking them (well except when it is) but it also depends on what they are dying of, their history, response to a code, etc. For example, we had a person who had cardiac arrhythmia who devolved into V-Tac who we coded with CPR, pushed general meds like Epi, and shocked. Third shock she game to at 200J with mild confusion (though admitted w hx of confusion as she had a similar cardiac event -1 yr earlier). She crashed again ~40 minutes later and we coded her again then because we thought she could be fine, got her back and everything was fine. Admit for recovery discharge w updated meds.

Compare that to a guy who seems beyond saving who you code for 15 minutes and seems to come back. If he crashes again, you do your best but if he came to after 15 min he is probably too far gone the second time, but that doesn't mean you stop.

Then even compare that to people who crash 3+ times in a 24 hour period that make it to discharge still.

I wouldn't be opposed to expanding out medical system to have more direct treatment for afflictions like a gunshot wound in comparison to broken legs or a car crash, hell I'll champion that effort. But really unless we expand our system to have different player based responses to trauma, paramedics are going to have a hard time deciding personally as they have no real medical training to draw off of.

Main point 1:
Paramedics don't really understand the medical implications of their actions of the severity of illnesses. (For example most people think if you're shot in the head you're a gonner, but actually you have a real fighting chance still).

Main point 2:
In medicine, you keep reviving until the patient stops, not yourself.

Draw off this what you will, but that is my 10 cents.



Or just give the paramedics this

Not directly relevant to OP, all seems very arbitrary - what does your 'main point 2' even mean?