The state of PD and Citizens.

[Moon The Goon]

TFU and the PD in general being more balanced

I've heard several discussions about the PD and citizens and how there is a weird advantage sometimes for citizens and sometimes for officers, these are a couple problems i feel need to be addressed whilst in the PD.

Number 1 problem and a problem everybody talks about is....the SWAT van.
In my opinion, the SWAT van ruins the whole concept on gunfights if overused, Yes i do think it should be a thing however these policies that are forever changing, and seeing higher up people doing whatever they like in them really confuses me. One minute, something's against policy and the next its not.

One policy being swat vans should only be used to run people over if completely necessary however as you can see in this video here, @Samuel is ploughing an unarmed person down.

(Also being shot at, when i only have a gun on my back and have not discharged it once)
I do not think it was a necessary for him to run over him to be fair.

Number 2 problem being Cockiness whilst in the van:
Shown in this video (0:14 seconds in)

Number 3 problem:
Some taking a large amount of shots and some not taking a large amount of shots:
1st exhibit: 0:03 seconds in, 2nd exhibit: 0:59 seconds in.

I've also tested on academy server that it takes 2 headshots with an Ak-47 with compensator on to kill a TFU despite them not wearing head armour in the player model shown:


I've seen several TFU even tell me there OP as fuck. Shoutout to @Janice

Possible Solutions are:
Like it was supposed to be at first TFU patrolling with standard MP5's and light armour and having to return to the station to get heavy armour and M4's.​

@Creepis was my source.

This allows an advantage for defenders at the first instance however if police are organised and prepared they will know what to go get before entering the possible dangers.

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Another being like said before SWAT vans destroyed by large amount of shots like 10 mags worth say, so that or perhaps a sniper.

This allows TFU to get away whilst being shot at, as 10 mags aren't going to be sprayed at once and also gives a chance of defenders peaking and shooting and an objective to continuously shooting the van.


PLEASE READ:
I understand the whole "But PD are good in real life, so why they must be able to clap citizens ezpz" yes but you got to bare in mind if this happened the server would be dull.

This isn't a whole 'PD should go back to how it was when they were getting rekt everyday every hour' thread, its a simple sometimes citizens fuck up cops, sometimes PD like absolutely bum civs.

Citizens
I think this would be a highly bias thread if i wasn't to put on the problems of citizens.

1st problem:
When raiding some organisations raid with 10 men, and this makes it nearly impossible for officers when there is hardly any tfu online. Now this tends to not happen when the SWAT van is not being overused.

This is where, this gets confusing as, when SWAT van is being overused police have an unfair advantage however, when cops don't they seem to get fucked.]

However this being said, yesterday i witnessed a raid on my org with like 4 tfu
@Draxen , @Dom_ , @Creepis and i believe another TFU but i do not remember the name.
I have to give credit where credit is used, these 3/4 TFU proved that the SWAT van is not always needed to defeat 12 men. I saw the swat van barely used and they really did demolish us. @TinySlayer was spectating lol.

This proves that the SWAT van doesn't always have to get used and that '10 men with assault rifles' isn't an excuse in some cases. They did an excellent job with minor casualties.

2nd problem:
Flankers.
I've seen flankers being used a lot in many cases, i even do it myself. There is many people who die, wait out NLR and come back and flank the police force when they have gained entry to a building for example. On the other hand, i do see cops doing this as well, however i must say citizens seem to come back with rifles however citizens come back with remi's and berreta's and sometimes TFU die.


I believe something needs to be addressed where there is a non-stop fare shootouts on the server and people do not have to use the advantages of flankers, and the swat van to kill each other.


I have heard about TFU possibly getting SR-25's for example and other things that seem to keep on being developed. Would this give them even more of an advantage? I think the SR-25's if added would be used by a lot of TFU. And you will see @Slayerduck picking people off one bye one.

As for all this 'make an IA' stuff, people believe that officers use this as a way of getting out of rule breaks. What are your thoughts on this?



This is just a discussion post, please leave your thoughts. Strictly my opinion.
I attempted to make this post as unbiased as possible and giving 2 points of view as i am a senior officer myself.
This Post Took Me A While To Write So Would Appreciate It If You Would Read Completely.​

​

 

[rat]

"Should tfu be nerfed or made better"

-Yes
-No

Good question...

Tfu should be a threat due to weapon advantages and equipment not shit that actively discourages them from doing their job like a broken swat van

 

[✿ Squeeker Melon ✿]

Yes because two questions can be asked for one yes or no answer.


Random but true: get rid of cops marksmanship so all cops can be equally as bad as eachother.

 

[Alabin]

I am definately one to support the original idéa of TFU patrolling with MP5's & light armour.

I believe the entire PD needs take a step back and realize that the main mission of a police force is to attemp a de-escalation and the most peaceful resolution that is possible for each incident.

A militarys mission, on the other hand, is to inflict more pain and suffering onto the other side than they recieve themselves.


The entire point of a section with well trained officers using special weapons and tactics is to gain the advantage over criminals in highly dangerous situations.

One would, logically, think that the more TFU officers there are the easier each raid conducted- and each "10 toes"-arrest made would be.

But ask yourself, is this truly the case?
I personally have my doubts. I believe the introduction of the TFU has created a power paradox.

The more force you bring to a situation, the more likely you are to meet resistance.


Criminals have very effectively been able to counter the PLPDs added power, in the form of TFU, by among other things:

(just a few things I could come up with off the top of my head)

- Teaming up with other large organisations, creating raiding & flanking parties of 15-20+ people all with automatic rifles.
- Constantly flanking & "KOS"-ing police, both for themselves and friends being subject to a search warrant.
- Using sniper rifles much more frequently.
- Generally being much more agressive and ruthless than ever before.
- Cheating. Redicilous as it seems many cop-killers & raiders have been caught cheating, possibly a result of the PLPDs added power and consequent difficultly in winning any raid they attempt.



This is all just my own reflections but I think it would be sound for the PD should take a step back and realize that the main duty of a police force is to attemp a de-escalation of each situation.

Will more weaponry, equipment and invincible SWAT-vans really bring that to the table?

Or will it create even more hardcore criminals than we have now?
Whom which have absolutely no problem raiding and killing each other right infront of police nor have any issue with instantaneously murdering an LEO because someone utters "ten toes".

 

[Creepis]

I always disliked seeing the armoured van being used as a weapon, it's pretty inhumane and I would consider it worse than attacking a parachutists in a war (Paralake is basically a war zone at this point tbf). The policy was changed not that long ago as I wanted the van to be used as a transportational and mobile defence sort of vehicle that could be used on open areas and also use it to pick up stranded officers that would die out in the open or provide them some cover. This is the current state at the moment but you can still use it as a weapon if necessary which I feel is wrong.

I don't know where you're from but I don't think there is any professional police department that would run over some orange skid out in the street with an AK unless there is literally no other choice but to run him over and save your own or others life. This has basically become a natural thing to do in Paralake, probably easier to fix some bullet wounds instead of getting run over by a multi ton armoured vehicle that crushes all your bones but you can get revived anyways, because, PERP

About the whole MP5 patrol thing, yes, that's how TFU was when the whitelist was implemented just except for the MP5. You would drive back to the PD and take your full armoured gear from the armoury if you heard or said "TFU authorized" over the government radio. I liked the concept of it but it takes around a minute just to drive back to PD (depending where you are) and by that time the shootout is already over unless it's inside a property. It should stay as it is as TFU is supposed to be a fast responding emergency unit to resolve firearm related situations as quickly as possible with the fewest amount of casualties.

As for the head armour, I have no idea if it's actually fixed or if it still remains. TFU basically resorted to sitting in an armoured van and running people over or else they'd get insta headshotted by the people that cried about it.

IMO TFU should stay as it is, criminals very well know the risks that they're getting into. We are always open for suggestions though so you can always DM me or make a helpdesk ticket on PLPD.online for our division as long as it's reasonable.

I haven't shared this video with many but I was pretty upset this day, this was before the van changes. Poor medic. Still killed the TFU later tho xd

Lost my "only chip" only about after killing a bunch of cops and civs btw

 

[CodezBlack]

The main thing that got me excited about the new TFU was I thought it was going to be similar to the Metropolitan Police's SCO19 Armed Police Unit. MP5s and light armor in relatively fast vehicles designed for a quick and hard response. As seen in this video.

Goto 4:31/4:57
A lot of people live on the fact that the British Police are really friendly and are too weak however when it comes to firearms-related incidents they really don't mess around. So don't be surprised if one minute you're walking around with your chavy mates with an imported Makarov in your pocket to then being pushed to the ground with an MP5 pointed at you at all times. This is how I think the PLPD should be like. Kind and Friendly but won't hesitate to change the mood once you bring deadly weapons into it.

Heavy Gear:
If things were to get out of hand too much then they Metropolitan Police also have another special trick up their sleeve. It's a division called CTSFO which stands for Counter Terrorist Specialist Firearms Officer

These guys are the fist behind the knuckle dusters. If you somehow out match SCO19 then these guys will step in which is the best you can get unless you call the Army in. (Army don't exist in perp lol) But back on topic, this should be the idea of when you go back to the PD to equip heavy gear, which would then be used to throw the heavy punch. This group would be designed to be slow but extremely effective and tactical. Which is what TFU should be on perp with the heavy gear on. Not that they shouldn't be tactical without the heavy gear.

Conclusion:
TFU should be more British based.
SCO19: Light gear, Small/Compact Firearms, and relatively fast vehicles.
CTSFO: Heavy gear, Large/Heavy Firearms, and slow(ish) vehicles.

 

[Mage]

You'll never find the right balance because it just comes down to the people involved in the shootout. I haven't played for obvious reasons, but it was still clear that one moment you have some braindead tfu rushing in for kills, the next time it's a bloke picking you off one by one from a distance.

The only real change to be honest is to weaken the SWAT van (allow it to be disabled through snipers) so that there is still a risk sitting at the forefront of a shootout in the van, because I seriously doubt a policy will suddenly change much (as you've seen for yourselves). Also changing it to MP5 + Light armor means that eventually a bunch of raiders will get rolled over by SMG TFU and yet again start complaining how it's too overpowered and so forth. I also felt like people didn't use snipers as much as I really though they would be used, generally it's just a group of people armed with regular rifles, and nobody carrying a sniper to deal with the problem of cops/tfu standing far away etc.

The van is the only real problem, and all you have to do to prove that is look back at when the van was unspawnable (bugged) and nobody was complaining at TFU being "OP", so finding a middleground for the two sides would be a "solution".

 

[Dom_]

I completely agree with everything here, the swat van needs to be seriously thought about in terms of policy’s//rules, flanking should be allowed however it is a bit aids how if there is a raid at slums and civs are flanking from the market for example, cops run out straight after their nlr and pistol snipe them. I think the main issue with flanking is when it is done excessively, it should be considered 3.4 to flank ALONE and possibly 2.5 to flank more flank twice. I believe a rule should be put in place which allows a shootout to come to a close WITHIN 30 mins, shootouts go on for so long now due to tfu camping doorways which makes it impossible for people to push out of, I understand that u must be mentally ill to run inside of an apt with 15 ppl but there are many more ways of doing it. Back to flanking police can’t get mad at civs flanking or coming back to a crime scene to help people when usually/more often than not, the criminals are outnumbered and when police come back as soon as their nlr is over, its just hypocritical. If anything was to be done to flanking I’d say to add a rule stating that you can’t flank alone as a civ and that officers shouldn’t return straight after nlr, this would stop this being so repetitive and stop the amount of civilian flanks aswell as bringing shootouts to an end a lot quicker.

Some of this probably came off wrong so lmk what u think

 

[ErmakDimon]

I find it good as it is. People keep wanting to nerf cops because “irl cops are cops not a military” but irl criminals are also criminals not a military. Shootouts like what happens every hour on ph happen in real life once a decade, if not more.

What triggers me the most though are flankers. You know, those people that just stand next to a shootout, and cry if they’re told to leave or are cuffed. Something should be definitely done against flankers.

 

[Dom_]

I find it good as it is. People keep wanting to nerf cops because “irl cops are cops not a military” but irl criminals are also criminals not a military. Shootouts like what happens every hour on ph happen in real life once a decade, if not more.

What triggers me the most though are flankers. You know, those people that just stand next to a shootout, and cry if they’re told to leave or are cuffed. Something should be definitely done against flankers.

This is a game and games are supposed to be fun, making it too realistic like that would make it unfair and not fun to play, it needs to be balanced to be fun :/

 

[ErmakDimon]

This is a game and games are supposed to be fun, making it too realistic like that would make it unfair and not fun to play, it needs to be balanced to be fun :/

it's really neither fun nor balanced when a flanker just stands there but you cant do anything about him so you just wait to be shot (if youre too far away to cuff him)

 

[hondjo]

As much as the van is ABSOLUTE AIDS TO DEAL WITH. *cough cough* @Nasul
There are 3 viable ways to take it down. And instead of crying about it being to op criminals should rather just adapt and change the way they do shit. e.g carry M67 parts on them or using bulkier vehicles.

The first way to take it out is very simple, carry M67 grenade parts on you. Craft it on the spot and toss it below a swat van, everyone inside will die. Does require good precision and timing however, it is easily countered and you will more than likely fail whenever the TFU knows how to respond. An effective way of doing this would be to use a bulky vehicle and some props at the left or right depending where it is door of the van to keep the TFU inside. They van cannot move and they cant run out unharmed.

Second way is a lot less common and I've only seen it being used very recently, getting a van stuck and throwing a molotov below it for about 5-10 seconds is very effective. Safe and cheaper than a grenade. Only problem would be yet again having to trap the TFU van and making sure nobody leaves it.

Third and possibly the hardest way would be to chase off the TFU van with the previously mentioned methods and baiting him into a wall and letting them crash their car at preferably max speed. As expected it will just wreck their car and the rest speaks for itself.

TL;DR
Don't cry, just adapt

 

[Lelios1]

In big shootouts where there are tons of criminals the police will probably have the disadvantage, making their communication and usage of tactics vital for their success and survival. That's how it should be. A silly exception to this is the SWAT van which leaves pretty much no window of "counter play" on the part of the criminals whatever the policies regarding it may be. I think that the van should not be immune to sniper fire making the criminals able to defend themselves from it but also not making the van useless.
On the other hand, the PD can absolutely shit on small criminals making minor raids or generally minor crimes very hard to sometimes just not fun in regards to the difficulty. Don't get me wrong, in this case the police should have the clear advantage but with the most likely case of the being 3 TFOs on duty, it is almost impossible to fight successfully against them. When I raid alone or with a friend for fun, I want to have the disadvantage but not having an impossible to win firefight. For small incidents I'd love TFU to be equipped with a more light armor so the pd can have the advantage but also making it a more enjoyable experience both for the criminal who will have a chance and the TFOs who will need to at least try a bit more to win. Equipping complete armor should be for heavy shootouts etc.

My thoughts.

 

[Tilin]

As much as I'll get shat on for saying this: It worked better with the SWAT thing (To some degree and I am talking about balance not policies etc.) There was 3 SWAT usually. It was random people which had premium but were there just to have fun. Maybe get their firearms up a tiny bit. Which isn't that bad either... With the current system in place what happened was that people now must waste a ton of money to get to high weapon levels. They also must spend a lot of time in PLPD to get to those things. Now with that meant that there was only 3 of them. No more and they were super OP. They might've not been trained, but hey it was fun and that's really what all this should be about. And besides, they were only meant to respond once they were called out. Not like TFU nowadays just responding to any minor pistol usage spraying everything down in their path. SWAT needed to get permission or at least some amount of life alerts. This gave the criminals a small period of time to go away ~ Around 2min to bazaar (for SWAT to get ready and arrive).

Comparing SWAT and TFU:
SWAT|TFU
Untrained|Trained
Only responding to mayor incidents|Responding to a cat stuck in the tree sit with an M24 and SWAT van.
Not patrolling around|Patroling and basically everywhere (even at your grandma's 90th birthday party
0-3 on duty|God knows how many (1-50000)
Might be a sweater|Wasted time into PLPD to become a "killing machine"
Allowed players to get their firearms up|It takes you long enough to become one that you already get all weapons maxed out
...|...

But in all honesty. This is my opinion. I know the dumb thingies are gonna fly in. But hey. I know TFU is really good. But seeing that most crime is impossible to perform without some sniper guy inside a SWAT van just sitting having distance shooting you from a hill. And basically, once people start pushing him he gets back into his safe space.

TL;DR: TFU are the feminists of PERP. It's all fun and games while they're not getting shot, but once they get shot they go into a safe space which everyone but them doesn't have. And that safe space is pretty much a killing zone. And anyone who comes in their path shall be destroyed as of orders by the almighty TFU gods.

 

[Bnjemann]

Nothings more frustrating than shooting a mugger with a Colt Python and getting a SWAT Van sit on your lap 15 seconds later. TFU Works in its own merits but is often deployed for situations which can ruin the game play aspect of CrimeRP

Now that Sub machine guns are fixed, TFU could be adapted Via a ranking system.

It could go something like this:

TFO:
- Sub machine gun or shotgun as a primary
- Access to an M24 via trunk.
- PD issue sidearm
- 2 C2 charges
- 1x Flashbang
- Other standard police gear
- Can only spawn the range rover


Senior TFO:
- Takes up leadership among TFO's in a shootout.
- Access to all currant TFU Firearms
- Only 2 on duty max
- Other standard TFU Gear
- 5 C2 and 3 Flashbangs.
- Can spawn the SWAT Van.

I'd love to see some non-lethal loadouts for TFO's that they can discharge onto armed suspects, Such as this beauty used by UK Armed response units to deter armed suspects:

It should take up the primary weapon slot. As I've learnt in recent events, on PERP, nothing more than a pistol is good enough for high heat situations.

 

[Trebblebob]

On the topic of the SWAT van: Yes it is something that needs to be changed. However, it has been used questionably for quite a while and it has caused some people to become annoyed. This is a video of Jordan using the SWAT van to his advantage back in June of 2016, even here you can see that criminals get pissed off at it. Only just recently from what I have experienced the TFU are being to use it in more "strategic" ways such as using it to look into the farm (I'd get a video but I can't be bothered, pretty good tactic though @Dom_ ).

In order to combat the "abuse", I believe that the van should be able to retain its strength but be able to have its tyres popped. Which as a result should make the van incredibly slow or completely immobile. This would force the officer driving the truck to think before they just plough into the firing line. This would work quite well with the low walls found in the business area which could protect the tyres from being shot from certain parts.

 

[Slayerduck]

In all the example video @ OP i see a TFU officer outnumbered by crims and the only reason he is able to do anything at that point is use the TFU van to his advantage. You wish to remove that advantage and proceed to gun down TFU that is heavily outnumbered already?

Something like this:

Most TFU officers are generally outnumbered around 3 to 1, sometimes even 5 to 1 depending on the amount of officers on duty. You could always toss a nade at it if you want to disable it.

 

[Bert]

The Van in my eyes is fine. As slayer duck said. In most situations when it is just a TFU sitting in the van. It is only him left and he is outnumbered. In most situations TFO’s don’t even try killing people, they use it as a advantage to get ID’s and vehicle descriptions to make arrests and stops later when they have more support. Tbh killing people with the van should be restricted, as personally I have gone on 8 kill rampages tallying multiple denied IA’s into my record(I got more kills with the van than a gun lul) but for the most part using it as a weapon is extremely unfair.

 

[Atomic]

Nothings more frustrating than shooting a mugger with a Colt Python and getting a SWAT Van sit on your lap 15 seconds later. TFU Works in its own merits but is often deployed for situations which can ruin the game play aspect of CrimeRP

Now that Sub machine guns are fixed, TFU could be adapted Via a ranking system.

It could go something like this:

TFO:
- Sub machine gun or shotgun as a primary
- Access to an M24 via trunk.
- PD issue sidearm
- 2 C2 charges
- 1x Flashbang
- Other standard police gear
- Can only spawn the range rover


Senior TFO:
- Takes up leadership among TFO's in a shootout.
- Access to all currant TFU Firearms
- Only 2 on duty max
- Other standard TFU Gear
- 5 C2 and 3 Flashbangs.
- Can spawn the SWAT Van.

I'd love to see some non-lethal loadouts for TFO's that they can discharge onto armed suspects, Such as this beauty used by UK Armed response units to deter armed suspects:

It should take up the primary weapon slot. As I've learnt in recent events, on PERP, nothing more than a pistol is good enough for high heat situations.

Fuck ya I definitely agree TFU officers clearly never get outnumbered in any situation this is why we need only 2 instead of 6 and the TFU officer that are braindead should only get smgs and shotguns fucking why not just make them only officer with smgs amirite. No this is the dumbest thing I have seen since Ermaks GDFR post tbh tfu is perfectly fine (apart from the swat van/headshots) You want a max of 2 senior TFU at once now this is never gunna work. As you can see from baggers video hes just getting sprayed out his car and insta death. If we dont allow the normal TFU to have this van its gunna be the same as that video. Also if a TFU cant use the van then they cant use it for raiding what if they wanna use it to block a road up as its really hard to move it wouldn't make sense. Also with the Idea of 2xc2, that's not enough to blow through 1 appartment what if a CPL TFU on his own raided someone then they are stuffed. I think if you put more thought into this you could make a brilliant idea but this makes no sense with other issues.