Weight of discrimination bans and islamophobia.

[MalekIsWeird]

I don't want to get too sucked into arguments just merely wanted to put the stance that Community Management would be taking with my first reply. I think my final thing here is to let you know Community Management have periodically and pro-actively reviewed bans for 1.1 and 1.2.

The last review was 14th January 2023 where approx 100 bans were reviewed and only one ban was changed and that was an extension from 2 months to 3 months.

If you ever feel a ban is unjust you can let me know but chances are I will not be changing it unless something is really wrong, the benefit is I can look into context behind bans and speak to staff whereas most players can't. I have and always do my best to make sure bans in this topic are fair and proportionate.

I appreciate that clarity.

Look from my perspective, it is more offensive to me for someone to straight up cuss out my God than if it was someone to insult my mother. And that is the same for Muslims in general because we love God more than our selves as we are grateful to him for everything we have. For that to occur in game or on forums is something that is utmostly offensive, and to us, would be deemed a severe violation of 1.4; 1.2 and 1.1.

That said, This is why me and many others were surprised to see that 3 day ban but it is obviously understandable given the administrator handing it out wouldn't be nearly as offended as I would but despite that the punishment being that low is what resulted in this outrage / Problem.

Further solidifying the point that criticism towards religion by specifically insulting a religion or generally criticizing the broad concept of it both not only shouldn't be allowed but already aren't allowed by reference of the aforementioned 1.4,1.2 and 1.1 rules. Reasonably, as stated by myself and Sorle they are not topics fit for a Gmod community anyway.

 

[Deleted member 4084]

Im 1000% positive that If I went through the scam bans I could find many cases of homophobia or racism that weren't punished to what I would consider reasonable.

That's besides the point, just because there's the potential for other issues doesn't negate this being an issue.

yh i mean i get that but the thing is is that faith is not directly intertwined with a persons whole being and entirely decided at birth with no avenues of change in life, it's not a biological character trait so a criticism on faith is much further separated from the individual and holds no actual bearing on individuals of faith - when the aforementioned traits are criticised, you are directly criticising an unchanging predetermined biological trait of a person which is much more connected to the person themselves and as such is just grossly unfair and offensive

Like I said, I see exactly where you're coming from it's just not something I do necessarily agree with but I respect your point: I just see it from a different angle is all.

 

[Nottoc]

I feel like everything in terms of F6s or action requests or IAs or Staff Complaints or Warnings or ANYTHING on perp is completely dependent on the staff member that reviews it. I think that the number of times that something homophobic or racist happens is far more often than something Islamophobic happens. Even in the evidence that was provided by yourself or tyla you can see that it was dependent on the situation. Im 1000% positive that If I went through the scam bans I could find many cases of homophobia or racism that weren't punished to what I would consider reasonable.

I agree with the staff member part.

However how often and to what degree people are discriminated against doesn’t overly matter. It’s the fact that discrimination happens in of itself that is an issue.

I will never walk a day in your shoes, you will never walk a day in Haris’ shoes and Haris will never walk a day in my shoes. The only common outlier in cases of discrimination is the fact that the offenders have had the choice to discriminate and be hateful - who it happens to does not matter as it simply shouldn’t happen.

I do think that discrimination needs to be handled more seriously and consistently across the board. From my experience across moderating several communities, the best approach has always simply been zero tolerance, and it’s for the fact that the only person in these situations that had a choice was the person that was discriminating against someone. Unfortunately, I don’t see this community ever going in that direction.

 

[Dank]

I’m here to stir the pot as always, why is making jokes that priests are pedos or whatever retarded thing you can come up with “tolerated” not just here but in general. Maybe I’m a simple farmer but that’s acceptable and doing something similar to Islam is blasphemy.

My hot take is that making fun of religion itself should be fine, just not about people believing in it I think steelo said it well.

 

[Sean]

As stated above in many replies, staff members issue the punishment based on many factors. I agree that the punishments are inconsistent however, once a rule has been deemed broken, it is up to that staff member to decide on the punishment based on the factors already mentioned above.

I do definitely think there is an issue with all forms of discrimination on the server however, you have to understand that the majority of people being punished for these breakages are the individuals who join the server for the first time or have low playtime and they're only within the community to cause issues. They have no intention of actually staying and simply join to offend people and see what they can do before being banned. This makes it extremely hard for staff to enforce as we're in a constant battle with people immediately joining and straight away being discriminative. Some staff members like to inform the player first that it is against the rules and see how they act afterwards and some of us just punish them immediately.

At the end of the day, as much as we would like to completely remove discrimination from the community, it is never going to happen and it's just going to be a constant battle where punishments will constantly be handed out. I do agree that punishments need to be more strict in all cases however, this still won't solve the issue as we just again have further issues with people then joining on an ALT account. I would also like to add that as soon as a report comes through of this type of behaviour, I can speak for all staff members by saying we try to immediately take them away from other players and deal with it as soon as we possibly can.

 

[Allen Kennedy]

A couple of weeks ago I joined the server, and when I was playing I was told by a user that one of our prophets was a pedophile, and he liked to touch children which is abhorrent in nature, but by all figures Islamophobic. When I approach a staff member about this, I was told "Okay ngl, idk if blasphemy is really something we enforce... we don't do it for any other religion, I don't see why we'd enforce that under 1.2".

I will not be naming the staff member because I do not think they were in the wrong per se, however, I think there needs to be a clear message from community management that this is not to be tolerated, and that as a community we do not accept such hatred.

If I recall correctly, I suggested you make an AR, so the staff team could have a discussion and come to a decision on the matter, as I wasn't familiar with how we would enforce such a thing, especially as, as I mentioned, the statements seemed more 'blasphemous' than 'islamophobic' in my opinion. I think making that action request would've done more to bring the issue to light and get a more unified decision on the matter. If my memory serves correctly, you just went to another staff member instead.

EDIT: Also it was 3am and I think I was about to go to bed.

 

[MalekIsWeird]

I’m here to stir the pot as always, why is making jokes that priests are pedos or whatever retarded thing you can come up with “tolerated” not just here but in general. Maybe I’m a simple farmer but that’s acceptable and doing something similar to Islam is blasphemy.

My hot take is that making fun of religion itself should be fine, just not about people believing in it I think steelo said it well.

Whether it's fine outside of PERPHEADS is irrelevant to this discussion entirely. Islam is the way of life for 2 billlion people and as @Haris said, from our perspective we can also argue we we're born this way. This isn't a hill I am here to die on however since quite frankly discussing the "okayness" of hate-speech in real life is derailing the whole discussion from the main point.

The argument you gave is a red herring because the main point being argued is the problematic and rule breaking nature of criticizing sensitive topics in a PERPHEADS, clearly having nothing to do with whether it is ok in real life or not.

With complete backing of the rule system already in active operation, the allowing of hate-speech and mockery towards religion is a direct contradiction to the rules 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 regardless if it is aimed at individuals or the religious concept since both are disrespectful; problematic and discriminatory.

We can use this big discussion as a testament to how at least the Muslim demographic of the community won't be quiet and problems will arise so long as disgusting individuals like the one banned by Steelo continue to attack us. Directly or indirectly, Our religion or religion as a whole and even if it's them attacking other people by being homophobic or racist we will also be angry. The reason for such outrage in this specific circumstance wasn't only the severity of the hate-speech, it was the punishment that came as a result. Now as I previously stated, After rethinking the situation I don't blame Steelo for the way he went about it. But I am not going to sit silent and not discuss why the punishments towards such acts in the future should most certainly be far more serious across the board in my opinion along with many others Muslim or non Muslim like @Nottoc mentioned earlier.

Like I stated far back, I also have what you would call "hot takes" that I feel entitled to articulating too. That said, I have no right doing so in a forum or server that I agreed to following the rules on therefore I respectfully avoid doing so by abiding by the aforementioned rules so I expect everyone regardless of rank to do so so the community can hopefully be kinder with less toxicity towards one another.

 

[Deleted member 4084]

I can speak for all staff members by saying we try to immediately take them away from other players and deal with it as soon as we possibly can.

@Allen Kennedy this is why I went to another staff member; as stated in one of my other replies it lacked context, and it's not easy to explain the context to someone who isn't Muslim, hence me going to 3izu and they were able to immediately identify the issue.

But your response serves my point, "as I wasn't familiar with how we would enforce such a thing" is primarily what I wrote this thread with aims to do; if you weren't aware, and others have a similar mindset this comes down to lack of communication/awareness, by no means am I saying what you did was wrong or the reason for this thread, but rather that if you weren't aware... who else is not aware?

We have so much communication in regards to the rules and what is permitted, what is not permitted; if we look at 1.2 we can see "any form of discrimination, including but not limited to... is strictly prohibited in all contexts, whether in-character or out-of-character." The rule itself' outlines it as an issue, but it appears that it's not that deep when it comes to Islamophobia.

Again, it's more the lack of awareness as opposed to ignorance or whatnot.

 

[Nottoc]

As stated above in many replies, staff members issue the punishment based on many factors. I agree that the punishments are inconsistent however, once a rule has been deemed broken, it is up to that staff member to decide on the punishment based on the factors already mentioned above.

I do definitely think there is an issue with all forms of discrimination on the server however, you have to understand that the majority of people being punished for these breakages are the individuals who join the server for the first time or have low playtime and they're only within the community to cause issues. They have no intention of actually staying and simply join to offend people and see what they can do before being banned. This makes it extremely hard for staff to enforce as we're in a constant battle with people immediately joining and straight away being discriminative. Some staff members like to inform the player first that it is against the rules and see how they act afterwards and some of us just punish them immediately.

At the end of the day, as much as we would like to completely remove discrimination from the community, it is never going to happen and it's just going to be a constant battle where punishments will constantly be handed out. I do agree that punishments need to be more strict in all cases however, this still won't solve the issue as we just again have further issues with people then joining on an ALT account. I would also like to add that as soon as a report comes through of this type of behaviour, I can speak for all staff members by saying we try to immediately take them away from other players and deal with it as soon as we possibly can.

With all due respect, but you will always have people that join and play on alts, you will always have people that cheat, people that discriminate and whatever else - that is just the nature of having a community space with rules, people will come and break those rules.

But it is the responsibility of the staff team to enforce the rules to harbour a certain environment for the community and people within this space. The fact that there is no general standardised approach for something major like discrimination, a topic that is so personal to so many members of the community is not great because it means that there will always be a group of people that feel unjustly treated and overlooked about the severity of the discrimination they face.

One great example is the use of the r-word, that is widely accepted and tolerated within this community. Despite its origins and it quite literally being a discriminatory word to describe a mentally disabled individual - it is so ingrained and normalised within this community that majority of people don’t even know the implications of the word or why it could potentially be hurtful to an individual who is mentally disabled. However, this could quite literally change if the staff team decided to make it an unacceptable term to use. Would it take some adjusting, and be a bit of a pain? Sure. But ultimately the power of how this community is shaped, is in your hands because it all comes from the top and trickles downwards to the regular players.

EDIT: point proven by one of the posts above this one that literally seamlessly use it.

 

[Allen Kennedy]

@Haris I understand that the Muslim view on blasphemic remarks against the prophet is that they shouldn't be permitted, however this community is comprised of a lot of different people of many different faiths. I didn't immediately issue a ban, as, whilst I recognised the comments were blasphemy, I wasn't sure what the administrative stance on the matter is. I happen to be a Catholic, and I wouldn't ask for a ban to be issued if someone made comments against the pope, or any other religious figure within Catholicism or any other sect of Christianity, so I hope you'll understand why I asked that it go to an AR, so there could be an internal discussion about the issue, hopefully setting some sort of precedent as to how things like this are dealt with so that it's fair, and doesn't favour any one religious group over another.

 

[Nottoc]

@Haris I understand that the Muslim view on blasphemic remarks against the prophet is that they shouldn't be permitted, however this community is comprised of a lot of different people of many different faiths. I didn't immediately issue a ban, as, whilst I recognised the comments were blasphemy, I wasn't sure what the administrative stance on the matter is. I happen to be a Catholic, and I wouldn't ask for a ban to be issued if someone made comments against the pope, or any other religious figure within Catholicism or any other sect of Christianity, so I hope you'll understand why I asked that it go to an AR, so there could be an internal discussion about the issue, hopefully setting some sort of precedent as to how things like this are dealt with so that it's fair, and doesn't favour any one religious group over another.

Okay, but that’s you and your personal feelings. You could have another catholic player that would feel strongly against that.

In matters of discrimination and hateful behaviour, it should not be what you “think and feel” is acceptable because feeling discriminated in itself is a personal matter that differs from individual to individual. Having this approach is what makes moderating this topic difficult, rather than having a clear cut boundary of, “no, that is not acceptable.”.

 

[Allen Kennedy]

Having this approach is what makes moderating this topic difficult, rather than having a clear cut boundary of, “no, that is not acceptable.”.

smh why do you think I asked that he make an AR

 

[Deleted member 4084]

I happen to be a Catholic, and I wouldn't ask for a ban to be issued if someone made comments against the pope, or any other religious figure within Catholicism or any other sect of Christianity

Whilst I respect your views, as I've made clear in prior comments it's just not something we as a community tolerate. Whilst you may not report it or expect there to be a punishment, I do.

so I hope you'll understand why I asked that it go to an AR

There is no issue with you asking me to make one whatsoever, I just wanted it to be dealt with at that moment primarily because I'm not going to be in an environment where someone can behave the way that individual did. If we look at cases of discrimination, the staff team has quite a prominent history of ignoring situations until it gets bad (to make this clear, in no way shape or form am I insinuating you have done/do this). The staff team is reactive, in response to a situation they will take action but I do not feel, as a Muslim in a community which has a prominent Muslim community, that we are treated with the respect we deserve, in so many situations do I hear comments which are ignored and sometimes made by staff.

Can I make a staff complaint? Of course I can. It's not the point, it's the fact it is a relative norm.

so there could be an internal discussion about the issue

Whether an AR was made or not, a discussion can still come from something like this and that was not an isolated incident.

hopefully setting some sort of precedent as to how things like this are dealt with so that it's fair, and doesn't favour any one religious group over another.

This is the intention of the thread, so action can be taken and we as a community can see what will/has/is being done.

 

[Eric Jonson]

Religion is a joke anyway. Only causes more problems honestly this whole thread is a joke just get off the internet if it triggers you that much for someone to have an opinion and say sometbing . Dont advertise your religion either. Religion is one of the greater evils of this world. Isn't about love or helping or anything good. Stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt. Your Religion isn't special there are tons of others in the world. Don't need to make a whole thread over it

 

[Dank]

Whether it's fine outside of PERPHEADS is irrelevant to this discussion entirely. Islam is the way of life for 2 billlion people and as @Haris said, from our perspective we can also argue we we're born this way. This isn't a hill I am here to die on however since quite frankly discussing the "okayness" of hate-speech in real life is derailing the whole discussion from the main point.

The argument you gave is a red herring because the main point being argued is the problematic and rule breaking nature of criticizing sensitive topics in a PERPHEADS, clearly having nothing to do with whether it is ok in real life or not.

With complete backing of the rule system already in active operation, the allowing of hate-speech and mockery towards religion is a direct contradiction to the rules 1.1, 1.2 and 1.4 regardless if it is aimed at individuals or the religious concept since both are disrespectful; problematic and discriminatory.

We can use this big discussion as a testament to how at least the Muslim demographic of the community won't be quiet and problems will arise so long as disgusting individuals like the one banned by Steelo continue to attack us. Directly or indirectly, Our religion or religion as a whole and even if it's them attacking other people by being homophobic or racist we will also be angry. The reason for such outrage in this specific circumstance wasn't only the severity of the hate-speech, it was the punishment that came as a result. Now as I previously stated, After rethinking the situation I don't blame Steelo for the way he went about it. But I am not going to sit silent and not discuss why the punishments towards such acts in the future should most certainly be far more serious across the board in my opinion along with many others Muslim or non Muslim like @Nottoc mentioned earlier.

Like I stated far back, I also have what you would call "hot takes" that I feel entitled to articulating too. That said, I have no right doing so in a forum or server that I agreed to following the rules on therefore I respectfully avoid doing so by abiding by the aforementioned rules so I expect everyone regardless of rank to do so so the community can hopefully be kinder with less toxicity towards one another.

I think it’s retarded what you say in your last block mostly. You are accusing me of discriminating against you so let me be extremely clear. I don’t hate you or your passion for religion.

Yet I am entitled to have my own opinions and so is everyone else, criticing religion that being jokingly or in a serious context is everyone’s right. It’s the concept of free speech. And sure it may be offensive, grow a pair.

If my opinion is that I don’t like what a religion stands for I have the right to share that opinion. It becomes hate speech when I attack you for being of a religion. I can question the government without being a conspiracy theorist just like I can have opinions about religion you don’t like.

I think it’s a very simple topic this. I do not give a fuck you are a Muslim and I doubt anyone really does. It’s your right and good for you that you have found peace in your religion.

That I do not agree what it stands for does not mean I am hate speeching, discriminating or hating you. your blatant attempt at censoring opinions instead of what really matters is pathetic and shows how small your argument really is.

 

[Fredy]

First of all, the bans you linked are clearly cherry-picked in bad faith. Only one of them is a ban from steelo (who you criticise mostly in this post), and it also involves RDM, so it is not purely a 1.2. ban and therefore not comparable.
The other bans are from other admins, and involve repeated behaviour or also breaking of other rules. As we all know, the punishments that are handed out by admins are highly variable, so why you would even choose them to support your point is highly dubious.

But most importantly, when shown evidence that steelo's bans regarding 1.2. are fairly consistent in length, it was fully ignored by both you and Malek.

All of this makes it immediately apparent that neither of you are arguing in good faith, so I don't believe we should spend any period on time listening to you.

However, regardless of what you said, Islamophobia, homophobia and racism are clearly not tolerated on the server and both the rules and the bans speak for themselves.

 

[Collier]

It is inherently flawed to pick out a handful of punishments and try to compare them to one another. There are several factors that go into deciding how punishments are made. Generally speaking, the harshest 1.2 bans are issued to people who come on the server and contribute nothing but their hateful rhetoric. It just so happens that most people who are racist or homophobic or whatever on the server follow this same pattern.

No two situations are ever identical, context and intention matters. Someone who comes on for the sole purpose of being a hateful asshole will immediately be removed. The situations in which more lenient punishments were issued are more nuanced than that. Even for racism and homophobia and sexism and what have you, we have given short bans and even warnings, it is in incredibly bad faith to try and paint the staff team or individuals staff members as being lax on islamophobia, just because harsher bans for other forms of discrimination exist.

It was found that the player who was islamophobic broke the rules, and he was banned for it.

The position that the existence of people who's skin colour or sexual orientation differ from your own offends you is, quite frankly, a disgustingly narrow-minded and moronic viewpoint to have. Marginalising a group of people for things that are outside of their control is morally wrong, and we do not allow it here. These are things individuals are born with, and they should be allowed to exist and live their lives without some caveman discriminating against them.

Defending hateful opinions and justifying it with religion or upbringing or any other factor that might impact your belief system, then expecting people to respect your hateful opinions is also not exactly productive. Every single relationship you make is informed by how compatible your beliefs are with them, and how much common ground you have. If I encounter somebody who is racist, sexist or homophobic, I will usually write them off as a person not worth interacting with, as those views are not compatible with my own. This is how friendships and relationships work.

 

[Jimmy]

Meaning no offense at all, nobody would bat an eye if someone said something along the lines of "Fuck Jesus", or some equivalent blasphemous comment directed toward Christianity. There is a huge difference between blasphemy and hate speech / discrimination and whether you like it or not, that difference must be upheld in the interests of free speech.

 

[Eric Jonson]

Meaning no offense at all, nobody would bat an eye if someone said something along the lines of "Fuck Jesus", or some equivalent blasphemous comment directed toward Christianity. There is a huge difference between blasphemy and hate speech / discrimination and whether you like it or not, that difference must be upheld in the interests of free speech.

Welcome to modern religion shits stupid. It's free speech if you don't want to hear it get off the internet. The world shouldn't coddle you

 

[Akagami shankss]

Meaning no offense at all, nobody would bat an eye if someone said something along the lines of "Fuck Jesus", or some equivalent blasphemous comment directed toward Christianity. There is a huge difference between blasphemy and hate speech / discrimination and whether you like it or not, that difference must be upheld in the interests of free speech.
where do you get this from im muslim and if someone disrespected jesus aka isa in islam i would break there nose irl in game nothing i can do other than make a f6